Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Ogdibus]

See: Campaigning.

Campaigning is implicitly stated when I say "raising awareness".  Some also regard it as organized complaining.

This thread is reminding me of a certain Roman Emperor:

Nothing that goes on in anyone's mind can harm you. Nor can the shifts and changes in the world around you.
 -Then where is harm to be found?
In your capacity to see it.

When the thing's in a person's mind motivate the person to hurt you, there is harm.  You cannot compare the circumstances of an emperor to those of almost any other kind of person.  It's ridiculous.  I can't order an army to destroy somebody that makes fun of me, or use a propaganda campaign to counter slander.  I doubt you can either.

[Remuthra]

There's a major difference between idly complaining and actually taking an active role in opposing Stuff Oppressing You. There's also a major difference between insults and actual harm. If you're offended because someone insulted you, you're being oversensitive. If you've actually being oppressed, there's a problem that needs to be fixed. Nowhere in the world is hurting someone's feelings a crime, and for good reason.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

snip

I'd like to concur with Leo, the middle path is the best.

[Dutchling]

Just for the record: I'm not agreeing with the emprah as I said, the thread's content reminded me of that quote.

[Ogdibus]

So let's look at someone who has a gender identity that does not match their physical gender. I see it bandied about that gender-normative people have an unearned advantage in society; I'd return that transgender people have an earned disadvantage. Who you are inside, your real identity, is very different from your public, perceived identity. If you decide to display a public identity that is far from the expected norm in a culture you should expect that there will be some cultural backlash. If I split my tongue and get a full-body-and-face tattoo of scales and say I'm a lizard man, perhaps I will experience some difficulty finding employment in many fields. That is the choice I make when I display a non-standard identity. I earn disadvantages.

That's sickening.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

that is sadly the truth. Society blows.

EDIT: that's also an extreme example, and there are also a lot of people who are willing to look past that. Still, society blows.

[Willfor]

that is sadly the truth. Society blows.

EDIT: that's also an extreme example, and there are also a lot of people who are willing to look past that. Still, society blows.

No, that's not society (well, it is, actually, but beside the point), that's what Leo is advocating as a good thing. The thing that you, personally agreed with. The thing that you said was the middle road.

[Ogdibus]

I didn't "earn" persecution.  It actively hunts me.  I've spent most of 36 years trying to conform to what people perceive to be my gender, and making even slight mistakes would sometimes have huge repercussions.  I had to be constantly conscious of my actions without really having a clear idea of what they should be. Correct gender behavior was not intuitive to me at all.  I did every thing I could to avoid this "earned disadvantage" and it still made me miserable, not because of what I chose, but because of what others chose to do to me.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

that is sadly the truth. Society blows.

EDIT: that's also an extreme example, and there are also a lot of people who are willing to look past that. Still, society blows.

No, that's not society (well, it is, actually, but beside the point), that's what Leo is advocating as a good thing. The thing that you, personally agreed with. The thing that you said was the middle road.

HEY, you're right! Look who didn't actually read Leo's post and just followed his buzz words (me)!

I retract my former statement (about Leo and my support of his statement, not the society thing, that's true).

EDIT: this also seems to have gotten away from the point of words and them hurting people.

[Ogdibus]

Words can be used to create an atmosphere in which hurting people is acceptable, in addition to offending them, I might add.  They matter.  When the words are pervasive enough, more people will be persuaded by them.  That's why things like you tube comments matter, even if individually they have little impact.  That's why minorities get frustrated by the majority.  If their voice get's drowned out, their needs will not be met.  A marginalized minority will become hyper vigilant, not hypersensitive.  It's because they are marginalized, not because they want special privileges.  To get angry at someone for that is incredibly selfish.  That is the problem and topic in this thread.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

actually the topic of this thread was a guy who got mad because he thought the OP was calling him a dwarf.

The rest is derived/inferred/implied.

Also, while minorities are very often marginalized the US is by far one of the most pluralist governments out there. Society on a non-governmental level? I don't know, i'm a rather homogeneous, small town, Caucasian male. I've been the subject of jokes, I felt bad at the time, I moved on. I've been marginalized. I've never gotten back at someone. I find it difficult to comprehend, and even more difficult to change the way the system works.

As far as "hyper vigilant" goes, not to make light of the situation, it is the same thing as hypersensitive. Everything turns in to a perceived slight, real slights are often taken too far. Minority groups have problems, that's unfortunate. A lot of people I know are rather understanding, I myself the straddle the line of social "wrongs and rights", and associate with crowds that aren't the most popular, in addition to my normal friend group. Unfortunately, people are really unlikable cunts, I know people who just have unreasonable hate, they're either too stupid or too scared to look in to it. Try and change that. It's literally impossible.

[Ogdibus]

The US is pluralist because of "hypersensitive" minorities, though. There will be over-corrections, but becoming hostile toward the offended party in those situations will exacerbate the problem.  That's my disagreement with the attitude of the OP.  If you accidentally offend  someone, you can easily apologize for being unaware of their needs, if that was the case.  Perfectly informed sensitivity is impossible, so this is really the only viable option if you don't want to make an ass of yourself every so often.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

The US is pluralist because of "hypersensitive" minorities, though. There will be over-corrections, but becoming hostile toward the offended party in those situations will exacerbate the problem.  That's my disagreement with the attitude of the OP.  If you accidentally offend  someone, you can easily apologize for being unaware of their needs, if that was the case.  Perfectly informed sensitivity is impossible, so this is really the only viable option if you don't want to make an ass of yourself every so often.

Well, I agree.

[Stuebi]

The US is pluralist because of "hypersensitive" minorities, though. There will be over-corrections, but becoming hostile toward the offended party in those situations will exacerbate the problem.  That's my disagreement with the attitude of the OP.  If you accidentally offend  someone, you can easily apologize for being unaware of their needs, if that was the case.  Perfectly informed sensitivity is impossible, so this is really the only viable option if you don't want to make an ass of yourself every so often.

He misunderstood the topic the op was talking about, and came over to complain. Why should the op have to apologize in that situation? I would just clear the thing up, explain the actual topic was a game, not dwarfism, and then the situation should be resolved. Ideally the other guy should've stood up and apologized for just assuming things without actually knowing what the topic and talk was about.

Let's blame the victim, then?

It's pretty hard not to when the entire act of being offended is because of a person's personal feelings and ability to deal with them. It's not as if everything is separated into strict categories of offensive and not offensive. It's in the eye of the beholder.

+1

I dont argue against the fact that prosecution, mobbing and hatespeech against minorities is bad. But the op's example and the stuff about created content is an entirely different matter. Its usually pretty obvious when someone actively degrades and speaks against minorities. If someone calls you a freak on a regular basis and demands that you'd be outlawed from society because your perceived identity differs from their expected one, that sucks and is disgusting. If you are denied a Job, a place to live or decent treatment because of your race/gender/opinions/whatever, i'll be the first to say its bullshit.

But what I take issue with is people waltzing into conversations, geting vocal over comedy and jokes and then wondering why noone sympathises. When it comes to stuff like a Youtube Video or a Blog/Webcomic, there _Is_ a way to just "Walk away". Hammer that red X on the top right and you never have to hear/read said content again. Alternatively, leave some constructive critique in the comment section, but then you have to deal with the fact that not everyone agrees with you and perceives the content the same way.

But most of the time, people opt for the "Im so offended at this." approach, insulting the creator and the viewers/readers, spewing insults and starting fights, throwing around labels and then crying foul when they do not get the expected response (See the Penny Arcade-thing). Its those people that upset me. The very same dude that sits at said Bar, hears the word "Dwarf" and just assumes that there is someone insulting him for being short, and then comes over to act outraged.

Both "Extremes" suck. It shouldnt f-ing matter how you look, what gender or race you are or whatever. But it also angers me that we live in a society where "Im being offended" are the magic words for entire websites to grind to a crushing halt, to adress this percentage of people who couldnt handle a joke. And any argument you start is instantly shot down by people hiding behind their morale-crusade to make everyone aware of their own personal problems.

[Ogdibus]

You don't even remotely comprehend his circumstances, do you?  Do you even try?