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[LeoLeonardoIII]

You guys didn't catch that I'm not actually in favor of society being this way? All the stuff I talk about at the end is about the difficulties involved in trying to change a culture's negative, undesirable features. You may not like that what I said is true, and I agree with you, I don't like it either. It sucks the people get persecuted because of the identity they project, and that they suffer when they decide / feel the need to project a false identity.

[kaijyuu]

Popping in to cheer on Ogdibus.

Sometimes arguing about this sort of thing makes me really stressed out, so I try to avoid it these days. Cheers for not backing down.

[AlleeCat]

So let's look at someone who has a gender identity that does not match their physical gender. I see it bandied about that gender-normative people have an unearned advantage in society; I'd return that transgender people have an earned disadvantage. Who you are inside, your real identity, is very different from your public, perceived identity. If you decide to display a public identity that is far from the expected norm in a culture you should expect that there will be some cultural backlash.

So you're saying that if I don't want to suffer verbal abuse, I should do something that makes me feel shitty anyway? Dressing/acting like a guy makes me feel like absolute shit. Every time someone refers to me as male, I want to die. If you still think it's my fault for getting called a tranny and a faggot then fuck you. Seriously.
I'm sorry for seeming overly angry at this, but it's something I've had do deal with ever since I came out, and I'm sick of it. I don't want to look out of the ordinary. I don't want people to look at me and say "yep I can totally tell she's trans." But dressing girly and wearing makeup make me feel better. You can't tell me it's my fault when the alternative is wanting to jump in front of a fucking bus every minute of every day.

It shouldnt f-ing matter how you look, what gender or race you are or whatever. But it also angers me that we live in a society where "Im being offended" are the magic words for entire websites to grind to a crushing halt, to adress this percentage of people who couldnt handle a joke. And any argument you start is instantly shot down by people hiding behind their morale-crusade to make everyone aware of their own personal problems.

I never want "entire websites to grind to a halt", all I want is for people to take a moment to acknowledge that something was offensive and that they fucked up. I've seen people use the word tranny simply because they thought it was the preferred term, and when they were told it wasn't, they politely acknowledged their mistake, and never used the word again. That's all I ask. If you do or say something offensive and get called out on it, you should politely apologize, and never do or say that thing that was offensive. That's not to say that the offended party couldn't do with some lessons in politeness, either.

Ideally, I would suggest legal action. If someone's really that committed to degrading you, press them with charges. Is pretty cut and dry that if someone is hurting more than your feelings, you have laws for that.

Unfortunately, the law doesn't really apply to verbal abuse. Death threats are one thing, but if someone is verbally abusing you without threatening violence against you, the law won't do shit. Someone telling you you should kill yourself doesn't mean shit unless you actually do it, in which case they get charged with something relatively minor or something, and that's only if the suicide attempt is successful. Even then, they pretty much have to say the exact words "go kill yourself", and if you don't have physical evidence, it's pretty hard to prove. So most of the time, legal action isn't an option. It's not like elementary school where you could just tell a teacher that someone was bullying you and have something done about it. (Which was still pretty unreliable at best, by the way)

He misunderstood the topic the op was talking about, and came over to complain. Why should the op have to apologize in that situation? I would just clear the thing up, explain the actual topic was a game, not dwarfism, and then the situation should be resolved. Ideally the other guy should've stood up and apologized for just assuming things without actually knowing what the topic and talk was about.

Ideally, this is how the situation should have played out:
OP: Oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't using that word as a pejorative, I was simply referring to a fantasy setting. I'm sorry if that word upset you.
Offended man: Oh, I'm sorry I took your words out of context, I will not bother you any further. Good day to you.

[AlleeCat]

( doublepost sorry ;; )

[Helgoland]

So let's look at someone who has a gender identity that does not match their physical gender. I see it bandied about that gender-normative people have an unearned advantage in society; I'd return that transgender people have an earned disadvantage. Who you are inside, your real identity, is very different from your public, perceived identity. If you decide to display a public identity that is far from the expected norm in a culture you should expect that there will be some cultural backlash.

So you're saying that if I don't want to suffer verbal abuse, I should do something that makes me feel shitty anyway? Dressing/acting like a guy makes me feel like absolute shit. Every time someone refers to me as male, I want to die. If you still think it's my fault for getting called a tranny and a faggot then fuck you. Seriously.
I'm sorry for seeming overly angry at this, but it's something I've had do deal with ever since I came out, and I'm sick of it. I don't want to look out of the ordinary. I don't want people to look at me and say "yep I can totally tell she's trans." But dressing girly and wearing makeup make me feel better. You can't tell me it's my fault when the alternative is wanting to jump in front of a fucking bus every minute of every day.

Could it be that you two are talking past each other? Allee's saying that anybody who calls her that stuff (People actually do that? Where do you live?) is not somebody on this side of the contrat sociale; Leo's saying that these people exist, that they are going to keep doing that anyway, and it's no use getting outraged every time. If I may suggest a motto for cooperation: Stay calm and slowly eradicate the intolerants through social progress. You don't see much open anti-Catholic sentiment* anymore, and there never was a real campaign against that. These views just die out.


*Used to be a big deal; Kennedy had problems because of his Catholicism, and they were generally seen as unreliable, as a fifth column, as an instrument of the Vatican. Not the same thing as transphobia, naturally, but a good example of a widely-held prejudice dying out in a rather small timespan.

[AlleeCat]

Oh, I mainly get called this stuff online when people who thought I was cis find out I'm trans, but I've gotten insulted by strangers irl a handful of times in the 9-10 months since I've been publicly out, even living somewhere as socially progressive as Washington state. Most of what I get is transphobia from people who don't even know they're being transphobic, though. The whole "why can't you just stick to your own gender?" "why don't you just present male until you get surgery?" "why can't you just act normal?" etc. just get so tiring so quickly, and I've had so many people just straight up tell me I shouldn't transition without being actually offensive. (Although that is offensive in its own special way.)

[LeoLeonardoIII]

Alleecat: I'm not saying what you should or shouldn't do. I understand that pretending to be someone you're not is stressful and painful. I'm saying what you already know, that existence in an intolerant culture, for a transgender person, is a choice between lying to everyone and feeling shitty vs. showing who you are and feeling persecuted for it. I wish the culture you lived in were more tolerant, accepting, understanding, and pleased to incorporate whoever you need to be into what they consider normal for their tribe.

[martinuzz]

Ideally, this is how the situation should have played out:
OP: Oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't using that word as a pejorative, I was simply referring to a fantasy setting. I'm sorry if that word upset you.
Offended man: Oh, I'm sorry I took your words out of context, I will not bother you any further. Good day to you.

I disagree there. I was just talking with a friend, about my favourite game.
I am not, and do not feel responsible for some drunk guy's paranoia.
If I were to apologize, I would admit being at fault in some way, which I just wasn't at all.

I also do not look over my shoulder to see if there's any overly sensitive Jews in the area whenever I order fruit jews. Erm juice. I am jewish, by the way
Or see if there's angry negros about when I order black coffee.
Or see if there's any half-deaf transgenders nearby when I have a philosophical debate about the tyranny of men.

Also, I would never willingly insult or discriminate any of the above.
However, if they come at me with an attitude of "please, insult me, I know you want to, cause everyone's a dick", I can be tempted to comply.

[misko27]

My problem is that There simply does not exist a universal standard for the line between oversensitive and rightly offended. It doesn't exist. YMMV. As such, everyone has different standards. So the only good line is the one generally used by "society".

By definition, that isn't going to be obvious; things will get fuzzy. But it means that people who mean certain things in jest are simply going to have to realize that it's not okay, and realize they don't have the right. Simultaneously, there is a point where a person is getting upset over something no one else has a problem with, especially if other people of that group are fine with it.

[Ogdibus]

Think of the situation as being similar to accidentally stepping on his foot.  It's easy to see why that would upset someone, and you probably aren't going to feel good about having done it.  That's a perfect situation for an apology, and a very bad situation in which to become defensive or blame the person that is stepped on, even if the accident isn't your fault.  Even when you are careful, there will still be accidents, and you need a socially responsible way to deal the outcomes of them.

[Stuebi]

Ideally, this is how the situation should have played out:
OP: Oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't using that word as a pejorative, I was simply referring to a fantasy setting. I'm sorry if that word upset you.
Offended man: Oh, I'm sorry I took your words out of context, I will not bother you any further. Good day to you.

I disagree there. I was just talking with a friend, about my favourite game.
I am not, and do not feel responsible for some drunk guy's paranoia.
If I were to apologize, I would admit being at fault in some way, which I just wasn't at all.

I also do not look over my shoulder to see if there's any overly sensitive Jews in the area whenever I order fruit jews. Erm juice. I am jewish, by the way
Or see if there's angry negros about when I order black coffee.
Or see if there's any half-deaf transgenders nearby when I have a philosophical debate about the tyranny of men.

Also, I would never willingly insult or discriminate any of the above.
However, if they come at me with an attitude of "please, insult me, I know you want to, cause everyone's a dick", I can be tempted to comply.

Pretty much this. I will certainly not alter my entire speech pattern, check every person around me and do a background check on everyone I meet before I talk about topics that _some_ people _might_ find offensive. If they project every analogy for "short" they hear everywhere on themselves (Or "Fat" "ugly" or what have ya.) then thats their fault and not mine. And im not talking about sitting in a Bar going

"Fuck Transgenders, am i right?!" because I dont f-ing do that. (Was if it wasnt obvious allready)

and then act outraged when you get called out for it. Im talking about situations where im having a casual conversation, telling a joke with friends or write about certain topics, and some overly-sensitive guy or gal waltzes in to announce how offended /heshe is. Not_my_problem and certainly not_my_fault.

It shouldnt f-ing matter how you look, what gender or race you are or whatever. But it also angers me that we live in a society where "Im being offended" are the magic words for entire websites to grind to a crushing halt, to adress this percentage of people who couldnt handle a joke. And any argument you start is instantly shot down by people hiding behind their morale-crusade to make everyone aware of their own personal problems.

I never want "entire websites to grind to a halt", all I want is for people to take a moment to acknowledge that something was offensive and that they fucked up. I've seen people use the word tranny simply because they thought it was the preferred term, and when they were told it wasn't, they politely acknowledged their mistake, and never used the word again. That's all I ask. If you do or say something offensive and get called out on it, you should politely apologize, and never do or say that thing that was offensive. That's not to say that the offended party couldn't do with some lessons in politeness, either.

If some directly refers to you as a tranny, or talks about transgenders in a bad way and actively degrades, then yeah. FUCK those people.

But im talking about situations where there's either established that something is not to be taken seriously, or people not actually talking about such matters (Like the op.). If a comedian's joke upsets you, dont listen to the comedian. Noone forces you to watch his stuff. And im pretty sure neither Yahtzee nor the Guys from Penny Arcade hate trans-people in the formers case, or condone rape in the latters. People know this. But they still decide to get outraged and act up, demanding apologies and deletion of content. And that, imho, is just Bullshit.

[XXSockXX]

I think that we should consider that the guy who felt offended by the OP might just have been a drunken jerk. I mean, yeah society has a huge track record of treating people who aren't considered "normal" like shit and that sucks. This doesn't mean however that these people can't be jerks too. I knew an old guy in a wheelchair who drove into people's ways on purpose, just so he could yell at them. While his anger and frustration were perfectly understandable, that doesn't mean he was right to lash out for no reason. In the situation here, the OP was clearly not at fault, since "dwarf" does not exclusively or even mainly mean "pejorative term for little people".

But im talking about situations where there's either established that something is not to be taken seriously, or people not actually talking about such matters (Like the op.). If a comedian's joke upsets you, dont listen to the comedian. Noone forces you to watch his stuff. And im pretty sure neither Yahtzee nor the Guys from Penny Arcade hate trans-people in the formers case, or condone rape in the latters. People know this. But they still decide to get outraged and act up, demanding apologies and deletion of content. And that, imho, is just Bullshit.

I would argue a middle-ground position here. I don't think there should be any taboos in humour. But people have a right to be offended also. The ensuing arguments are part of the social discourse about these issues. At least as long as both sides remain civil and reasonable that is, which is the difficult part, especially on the internet.

[Stuebi]

But im talking about situations where there's either established that something is not to be taken seriously, or people not actually talking about such matters (Like the op.). If a comedian's joke upsets you, dont listen to the comedian. Noone forces you to watch his stuff. And im pretty sure neither Yahtzee nor the Guys from Penny Arcade hate trans-people in the formers case, or condone rape in the latters. People know this. But they still decide to get outraged and act up, demanding apologies and deletion of content. And that, imho, is just Bullshit.

I would argue a middle-ground position here. I don't think there should be any taboos in humour. But people have a right to be offended also. The ensuing arguments are part of the social discourse about these issues. At least as long as both sides remain civil and reasonable that is, which is the difficult part, especially on the internet.

I certainly dont want to take that right away, and considering kaijyuu's comment I might have come over as a bit overly hostile. And I apologize if that was the case.

[Caz]

Some people will find any excuse to be offended. Often these people hang out in bars, too.

[AlleeCat]

Pretty much this. I will certainly not alter my entire speech pattern, check every person around me and do a background check on everyone I meet before I talk about topics that _some_ people _might_ find offensive. If they project every analogy for "short" they hear everywhere on themselves (Or "Fat" "ugly" or what have ya.) then thats their fault and not mine. And im not talking about sitting in a Bar going

"Fuck Transgenders, am i right?!" because I dont f-ing do that. (Was if it wasnt obvious allready)

and then act outraged when you get called out for it. Im talking about situations where im having a casual conversation, telling a joke with friends or write about certain topics, and some overly-sensitive guy or gal waltzes in to announce how offended /heshe is. Not_my_problem and certainly not_my_fault.

I agree that the situation the OP described was just a misunderstanding and, to be honest, nobody is at fault there. But you can't just say "I'm never going to stop using words that offend people", because a lot of people are going to yell at you. If I hear somebody telling a joke to their friends that starts with "So this tranny/faggot/nigger walks into a bar..." I'm sure as hell going to call them out on it, because they are using language that is generally deemed offensive. I was never talking about everyday words like you seem to think I was.

I disagree there. I was just talking with a friend, about my favourite game.
I am not, and do not feel responsible for some drunk guy's paranoia.
If I were to apologize, I would admit being at fault in some way, which I just wasn't at all.

You may not feel like you're at fault, but it's still common courtesy to apologize when you upset someone, unless you're trying to be an asshole, of course.

And im pretty sure neither Yahtzee nor the Guys from Penny Arcade hate trans-people in the formers case, or condone rape in the latters. People know this. But they still decide to get outraged and act up, demanding apologies and deletion of content. And that, imho, is just Bullshit.

I was perfectly fine with Penny Arcade's use of rape in that strip. They used rape as a joke without glorifying it. They wanted to imply that this man was having horrible things done to him, and rape is a horrible thing. On the other hand, Yahtzee's joke was demeaning to trans people, and I'm not talking about the little sign that says "no trannies" on it, because in the context of the game, it makes sense. I'm talking about when he makes the joke "'Co-op single player' is like saying 'I'm not gay, I only suck off pre-op transsexuals,'" which is demeaning to trans people, because it implies that trans women aren't actually women. It all depends on context, which is something that people seem to lack an understanding of nowadays. (Take Tropes vs. Women in Gaming as an example of how to take everything that might seem mildly sexist in a video game completely out of context, and then get upset about it.) Context is always required to understand any situation. You can't say Gears of War 2 is misogynist because a male character kills a woman and becomes empowered, because you took that scene completely out of context, and in reality it's exactly the opposite. Killing his wife completely wrecks Dom emotionally and in the next game he kills himself because of it. No, Gears of War is misogynist for a lot of other reasons that Anita failed to show, probably because there wasn't a single cutscene she could show as evidence, but if you take things out of context, you start thinking things are wrong for the wrong reasons, and nobody actually improves.