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[LeoLeonardoIII]

Those are very good points Og.

I think if everyone approached each other in an earnest attempt to bridge gaps and surmount barriers we'd all be better off. And it's probably true that everyone builds up defensiveness about this stuff over time because they have encounters that turn out poorly. In reality, the only times I really conflict with people is when we get into discussions about their minority group and their stance is "I know everything, you know nothing, and I'll be unhappy until your world is turned upside down to accommodate me". That's a minority of the minority though. Not everyone is an evangelist.

But it's possible for anyone to get a taste of how a minority in their culture feels, by visiting another culture where they are the minority. It lacks the feeling of being unable to escape, because you know it's just a short trip, and the desperation because even if it doesn't work out they can stay sane long enough for the trip to end.

[Ogdibus]

Visiting is not quite the same.  Minorities are more or less stuck being minorities.  A visitor can almost always go back home, and return to a majority state.  Not all minorities have the same experiences, either.  You really have to listen and read what they have to say.  They have, in most cases, already done that for the majority as a matter of survival.  The majority, however, has the luxury of being able to ignore minorities, while living relatively comfortably.  The exception is very powerful, politically active, (and probably super rich) minorities.  They can mess with the majority near impunity.

Also, I don't want anyone to think that I am only advocating this position only for minorities.  A majority person can also be offended unintentionally, and I still say that empathetic response is most often the better one.  You are just more likely to get a bad reaction from a minority because they have to put up with a lot of crap, and it wears them down.


Edit:  oops

[LeoLeonardoIII]

Visiting is not quite the same.  Minorities are more or less stuck being minorities.  A visitor can almost always go back home, and return to a majority state. 

I already said that part ;P

[Stuebi]

I don't say to apologize because I think that the person in question deserves it.  I say it because it can ease relations between different groups of people.  By doing this, your own group will seem less hostile, and the potentially offended group will become less vigilant as they see the need for it decrease.  It's a small step, but it will add up.

The thing that I think you don't understand is the experiences of minorities.  It's very difficult, though, because they don't get as much representation by default.  You have to make an effort learn by study and listening.  It is not a thing that can be acquired by speculation.  It isn't quick.  It can never be complete, but having just a little can go a long way.

I wont go into detail about my Background, but I am indeed not part of any described minority in this thread. It just stands that my first expression of someone, when it comes by him walking up to me and loosing his shit, isnt very fantastic. And yes, i've had that happen before. On the other hand I regularly hang with someone that faces discrimination, and when he had a confrontation with someone he approached it without looking like Kratos from God of War. You cant guess a persons background by one look, and my first reflex when someone lunges at me is to get defensive, especially if its a complete stranger.

But yes, from a purely neutral standpoint, the peaceful approach is the better one, even if I may think that the person doesnt deserve one for his act.

[Graknorke]

minorities

You seem to be operating under the assumption that being a minority is inherently a bad thing. It's really not. Only if you're in a culture where that group is disliked for whatever reason.

Example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_the_United_Kingdom#United_Kingdom_-_2011_Census_data
The only race group on there that gets a notable amount of dislike is Gypsies, and not for bad reason. More people getting upset at tax-dodging and ruining parks than just for being gypsies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_UK#Religious_affiliations
Again, the only minority religion that gets much flak is the CoE (because they (think they) have influence over the government), and occasionally when someone does terrorism in the name of Islam some people get mad at them too.

[Ogdibus]

You seem to be operating under the assumption that being a minority is inherently a bad thing. It's really not. Only if you're in a culture where that group is disliked for whatever reason.

I'm not operating under that assumption.  I gave an example of a minority that does not suffer for being a minority.  A group doesn't have to be hated to be at a disadvantage or marginalized.

[Graknorke]

You seem to be operating under the assumption that being a minority is inherently a bad thing. It's really not. Only if you're in a culture where that group is disliked for whatever reason.

I'm not operating under that assumption.  I gave an example of a minority that does not suffer for being a minority.  A group doesn't have to be hated to be at a disadvantage or marginalized.

By 'marginalised' you're referring to people of different cultures not being catered for by the majority, who don't belong to that culture? That's to be expected. Cultural experience is something people bond over, and if they don't share one it's more difficult to do so. That's why people immigrating to a country from the same place tend to live in one area of a town or city; because of the shared background.

[Ogdibus]

No I didn't mean that, but I also didn't mean to exclude it.

Living among people with the same culture also allows them to figure out if they have any shared needs to be met.  Sometimes that's stuff like printed materials in two or more languages.  They tend to have to unite to get that sort of thing done, because their collective voice is what will inform themselves and others.

Some groups have greater difficulty with this because they cannot easily coordinate with each other, and/or there are not enough of them.  Internet access has affected that quite a bit, but it's not something that everyone can have.  This is especially true for groups that aren't determined by heredity or indoctrination, and also face discrimination.

[VerdantSF]

I'm not surprised that the dwarf in the original post jumped to the wrong conclusion, especially since he was drunk.  As a minority, it's easy to become hypervigilant when it comes to perceived offenses.  I grew up in the South, and as a gay biracial guy, I received quite a lot of negativity.  It isn't always easy distinguishing between when someone is being a jerk for a specific "ism" vs. an all-around jerk.  Perhaps it shouldn't matter, since at the end of the day, it's someone being a jerk, regardless of the reasons.  However, it's easier for me not to take personally when, ya know, it's not actually about me, personally.  That said, there was one instance that really made me cognizant of my own assumptions. 

I was at a busy restaurant one afternoon.  There was a woman in the corner who had yet to be served when I got there.  I didn't really notice her at first, but after I had my order taken and appetizers served, I was surprised that there still wasn't any food at her table.  I watched as waitstaff bustled about, and it was clear that each server thought that the woman was being taken care off by someone else.  She was a blonde, thirty-something businesswoman, and not someone you'd think waitstaff would intentionally snub.  Finally, she got a little irritated and said loudly, "excuse me, I'd like someone to take my order!"  She received an immediate and emphatic apology and was quickly taken care of her.  I thought about how, if I had been in that situation, I might have made some assumptions as to why I wasn't being served.  It inspired me to always try to give people the benefit of the doubt.

[Ogdibus]

Do you think that they are all doing it?  Do you have any idea why they do those things?

[LeoLeonardoIII]

I think it's got to be influenced by their socioeconomic status. Stick any ethnic group in the lowest economic tier and you'll see a higher rate of crime.

That said, despite the original connection with Romani etc. people, at least in some areas it had more to do with itinerant groups. These would quite expectedly be culturally different from whatever town or village they were near. As rootless people they could be viewed with suspicion - people who have no allegiance to their neighbors, who have little to lose, simply as strangers to the local tribe. And after they leave, if anything is missing or vandalized, the easy answer is "they did it!" ignoring the native local hooligans who are whistling with their hands in their pockets nearby. As itinerants, they necessarily must encamp somewhere, make use of a water supply, etc. In any civilized area these resources will be owned by someone, and that someone is unlikely to accommodate the itinerants' use of them without compensation. Finally, they have just recently come, and have no claim on anything nearby, so sending them packing is something that people don't have a hard time justifying.

So there are a lot of reasons why people in a stable, established community would consider itinerants an undesirable group. The same goes for homeless people everywhere - not only are they poor, but their itinerancy makes them socially powerless.

When you read news stories like "A Romani man raped this lady, government cracks down on the camp he came from" try replacing the text with "A white man raped this lady, government cracks down on everyone in his neighborhood". Starts to seem pretty racist.

This one requires an investigation into the nature of the itinerant camp - is it actually more like an insular gang that commits thefts and frauds and moves out of town before being caught? Or is it a band of people who just don't have houses, and move around a lot, and consider their members to be like family? I don't think you can get to the bottom of it by asking the neighbors or surveilling the camp.

I'm always wary of groups that preach and practice insulation and control over their young, and especially an attitude of "outsiders are fair game". While I thought I had some sources suggesting that sort of insulation was part of Romani culture, I can't find anything on it now. Anyone willing to find and post some sources yea or nay on that issue?

[martinuzz]

I don't say to apologize because I think that the person in question deserves it.  I say it because it can ease relations between different groups of people.  By doing this, your own group will seem less hostile, and the potentially offended group will become less vigilant as they see the need for it decrease.  It's a small step, but it will add up.

The thing that I think you don't understand is the experiences of minorities.  It's very difficult, though, because they don't get as much representation by default.  You have to make an effort learn by study and listening.  It is not a thing that can be acquired by speculation.  It isn't quick.  It can never be complete, but having just a little can go a long way.

You obviously have never met a drunk person.
If anything, never apologize to a drunk person trying to start an argument. It will make them feel more justified in their moronity, and will often escalate the whole thing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for mediation, and diminishing conflict. But I also worked in a bar for 10 years

[Ogdibus]

I lived for three years with a friend that's an alcoholic.  I've known him for more than twenty years.  His entire family has the same problem.  Almost all the time that I spent with my friends between the ages of seventeen and twenty five, they were drunk.  I can't even count the number of drunk people that I've met or worked with.  This includes a knife fight for a couple of them.  Don't tell me what my life experience is.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

I think this topic has the most relevant title.