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[Rapozk]

But I don't hate elves.

Likewise. That is now less a running gag than a limping gag, especially now that the elves bring stuff that's actually useful.

Mind you, I learned to appreciate them back in 40d when I discovered how ridiculously profitable the clothing industry is.

GUYS
GUYS
I'M SO MAD YOU HAVE NO IDEA

I always kill Elves. Every time, since they're the weakest and easiest race to kill, they have good loot, like animals and wood, it can take a really long while for them to actually declare war on you, and when they do, their ambushes add a healthy amount of challenge to the game. Plus, they provide good training for your militia, and I've always hated elves in general, and letting them get chopped up is very satisfying.

I kill them to start a war, I don't care about the loot.

[varnish]

Wow, greed has corrupted your pride guys; the old idols have fallen, and replaced with false wooden ones. Why don't you just play as elves if you love them so much.

That said, I let elves live, as long as they don't refuse to trade. If they do at any point (or, alternatively, if their modded-in trade diplomat dies), then the whole contingent is slaughtered and their goods seized (not necessarily in that order). The game isn't just economic after all, it's fun ordering my dwarves to attack easy targets; civilians especially.  I am an overlord, let me be a tyrant damnit. I long for the day I can pillage Elven forests.
*on topic*
Your dwarves eat brain and heart on a regular basis, get over it.

Bah! I'll play my game however I damn well please, the same as you. If I want my dwarves to frolic in the daisies with a bunch of cannibal elves, then frolic they shall.

[sirdave79]

I dont hate the pointy eared little bas***ds. Anyone that carts unwanted crap off my site is considered a friend in all my forts.

And I have tried to play as them. I love the fact that they are immortal. I have a tendancy to want my citizens to live for as long as possible and see their children grow up. I gave up when I realised why they only bring wooden goods in their caravans from the available workshops/constructions.

I know this is a stupid thing to say but im looking forward to development along the caravan arc.

Im hoping that trading stuff to other civs will actually mean weapons and armour traded away is used by your trade partners soldiers and possibly when one has a bit more control over what a given caravan bring (read more control that currently, where possibly multiple SETS of armour could be ordered and received in reasonable time).

Im not sure how I feel about the elves complete lack of metalworking. (I know this is sort of irrelevant and that DF elves are DF elves and thats how it is) My brain wont stop saying, this is BS elves would do some metalworking even if its only using traded bars and coal (OK maybe they wouldnt use coal). Either that or more reliable purchasing of metal goods from other races/settlements, because lets face it, wooden armour and weapons is just pants.

Also, how is it even not completely stupid for masterwork wooden swords to be as good as metal weapons ?

Elves will trade away wood, and whittle wood (wasting precious cellulose ?) into statues/armour/whatever ?

Im sure its not intended that elven wooden items are literally grown on trees in the shape of the required items, so wooden helms are just "snapped off" like fruit ?

I personally appreciate the notion of a tree hugging faction but I think the harsh realities of the world of DF is that if your not prepared to burn any wood you are not going to last long (world gen trends aside).

I suppose wooden bows + leather armour (bit crappy as things stand ??) + the right tactics and environment (elven woodland) isnt too bad but im sorry, they are going to use sharp stone arrowheads as a minimum. They will not be using purely wooden arrows.

Can any of us really see a wooden clad elven army beating a steel clad dwarven army ?

Anyways I quite like the elves, entertain the notion of playing them in fort mode but feel they need some work/possible changes.

[Manveru Taurënér]

Elven wood isn't quite the same as normal wood in anything but appearance. There's supposedly a lot of different magics involved, although it's not quite represented properly in the game yet. We're getting proper differentiation between grown wood and normal wood in the next version though. Also this:

She drew her curved blade Elstra, a wooden sword polished for a hundred years in the brooks and streams of the forest until it took on the aspect of steel.

Edit: Also, in Threetoe's stories elves using natural poisons is a common theme, which we'll hopefully see in the game at some point.

[sirdave79]

OK fair enough. But in that case I look forward to the day when whatever magic is available to all races is fully deployed.

Im hoping one day priests/healers/clerics may be able to pray to cure infections, possibly resurrect with a large sacrifice/long time delay, as well as possibly "healing" missing/severed limbs.

Im liking what seems to be toadys vague descriptions of "low level" magic, that I feel is Lord of the rings style.

EDIT do you think its DF lore breaking for elves to trade for dwarven steel/human bronze armour ?

EDIT 2 Also, poisons could help plenty with regards to causing casualties, however its survivability I am most concerned about. Does every elf get a set of magic wood-steel armour ? These guys are immortal, little point if they cant survive a basic encounter with a goblin ?

And elves poisoning their opponents doesnt fit (in my head) with them being tree huggers who wont buy a cut log. Unless of course they think they are superior to other races and therefore other races dont deserve the same respect/consideration on the battlefield as other elves. However elves who consider themselves superior to other races could hardly fail to see the superior nature of metal armour during conflict (again pending the free availability of wood-steel armour to all elven warriors).

I suppose immortal beings who can grow steel quality gear on the trees in their orchards who consider themselves superior to other races might not bat an eyelid at poisoning their opponents.

However it seems unlikely to me that these entities would trade with other races.

Also magic enabling steel strength wooden armour seems like quite a bit of magic, again multiplied up by the availability of such armour.

A bit too much stretching going on for me.

[Larix]

I can understand how in olden times, there was some resentment towards elves who waltzed in with racist remarks and treecutting limits, but the obsession with elf-hating in some circles today feels rather unsavoury. It's as if the old-style elves were caricatures of stuck-up racists, and now people are trying to make dwarfs even worse stuck-up racists, and not as a caricature.

[misko27]

I can understand how in olden times, there was some resentment towards elves who waltzed in with racist remarks and treecutting limits, but the obsession with elf-hating in some circles today feels rather unsavoury. It's as if the old-style elves were caricatures of stuck-up racists, and now people are trying to make dwarfs even worse stuck-up racists, and not as a caricature.

First of all, you are inserting real world morals into a videogame about breaking them, which is bad.

Second, the racism implies the races are equal to begin with, which they are clearly not (elves are fay creatures, Goblins are descendent from demons, etc). Toady has mentioned that as humans become more diverse, Elves will become more alien.

Thirdly, elves are every little bit what they where before: they continue to throw little fits of rage if you should dare to offer one item out of a thousand with a piece of wood; and only a bug stops them from sending tree-plomats.

Fourthly, (trope bomb incoming) Dwarves v. Elves is hardly a caricature. Dwarves oppose Elves. It's simply traditional. Partly because elves are stuck up, and need to be taken down a peg.

They are just, asses; and I am a leader of a proud dwarven settlement. They will suffer my retribution. I really want the new version now. I must, burn.

[sirdave79]

The danger here is to beleive that whatever amalgam/perspective I have formed for elves is the right one for DF elves. However that trope bomb for me is contrived.

I am reasonably familiar with WHFB high and wood elves, dragonlance kagonesti and silvanesti, generic D&D, tolkiens feanor following noldor (admittedly highly conceited and condescending), but also those who had second thoughts halfway through, those that never knew the light of the west as well as those who never left once arriving (as much as one can reasonably be).

I have played plenty of skyrim and whilst I love to hate the thalmor im not a fan of its portrayal of elves in general.

I am fairly steeped in Azeroths elves, having read several warcraft novels. I feel blizzards elves are the most contrived renditions of elves with which i am familiar, possibly rivaled by bethsedas thalmor, however I have never been a fan of blizzards lore even if I did like their games.

I have read pratchets discworlds version of elves as well as having contact with a number of other "versions" of elves.

To me elves are characterised by extreme moral values, extreme ability and immortality.

It has never occured to me that elves and dwarves are diametrically and/or fundamentally opposed, nor do I beleive such a notion is consistent with even the majority of elvish representations with which I have come into contact.

I would say im still learning about DF elves but some of my previous points are highly valid.

If elves truly see other races as beneath them, wont trade for a cut log and dont produce metal goods in DF I fail to see that they would even send a caravan. Sending a treeplomat is wholly consistent with either a need or a desire for diplomatic relations which immediately strains the idea that all other races are beneath elves to the point that elves would display complete disregard for anything that is sentient and non elf.

In fact im starting to think elves would have more in common with goblins, although if they are indeed demon spawn (new idea on me) then they would also be diametrically opposed to elves ?

I personally favour the concept that elves dwarves humand and greenskins are either genetically divergent/modified(tolkiens orcs?) versions of a progenitor (homo rudolfensis[halfling] homo ergaster[elves] homo neanderthalensis [dwarf/ogre] homo sapiens [humans] ?) or that "a creator(s)" set down the different versions of humanoids as an experiment/remote conflict.

Either way anything is possible. History would change the nature of all the races surely ?

Personally adding everything up I think I know about dwarves and elves they would pragmatically attempt to be the best of friends and do everything they could to make that work, for both their sakes. The alternatives do not bear thinking about and often play out badly in various franchises to the detriment of both races.

I should think thats esoteric enough ?

[Grek]

Why don't you just play as elves if you love them so much.

I would totally do this if tree cities were supported. And since they will be supported in the next version...

[varnish]

Honestly, I just really dislike the implication that there's a wrong way to play Dwarf Fortress, that if you aren't playing the tedious "elf hating, amoral monster" cliche, you're somehow doing it wrong. This is Dwarf Fortress. It's a wide, wide open game. There is no wrong way.

And... I just realize how far away from the original post this got. I'm sorry. I'll go make some prepared minced cockatiel as penance.

[misko27]

Honestly, I just really dislike the implication that there's a wrong way to play Dwarf Fortress, that if you aren't playing the tedious "elf hating, amoral monster" cliché, you're somehow doing it wrong. This is Dwarf Fortress. It's a wide, wide open game. There is no wrong way.

And... I just realize how far away from the original post this got. I'm sorry. I'll go make some prepared minced cockatiel as penance.

I'm not saying that of course. I am just saying they deserve your hate, which some are questioning.

I personally would just like to avoid corrupting the violence-accepting environment we have here. It isn't a stupid cliché.

Why don't you just play as elves if you love them so much.

I would totally do this if tree cities were supported. And since they will be supported in the next version...

Not that level of support. I mean if you like you can just add the dwarf-mode playability tag to elven civilization, but they are still elves living in a dwarf environ. They still see underground, don't require air pumped in, use dwarven methods, etc. There is no support for the actual nitty-gritties needed to make living in trees possible (like, for example, magic. Elven trees are made to grow much larger). Humans supposedly require an open air mine for example, but in practice they don't.

Toady mentioned in the FotF reply that he would like to get the game to a point where it could simply make a civilization logical and what you might think of it even if you add unexpected things (like, if you added flying dwarves, the game would decide how that would affect dwarven civilization and act accordingly) but he isn't there yet.

[Buttery_Mess]

I like elves, but they are the best race to war with because of their shit armour and weapons and their mounts and large numbers. Great fun! Total bloodbath!

[Zale]

DF Elves are one of my favorite kinds.

They're unaging tree-loving cannibals who, without the aid of Dwarven technology or weaponry, catch and tame Bears and Cougars.

I guess I don't hate them mostly because I'm willing to put up with any amount of tree related bitchery as long as I continue to acquire fun-sized death and agony dispensers, like Lions.

[Trickman]

Jesus friggin' Christ. I don't hate elves. I just wanted a not-very-descriptive title to make a penis joke for a small 3-post thread and a few laughs, and that's the first thing which came to my mind. I never expected everyone to go batshit insane about the topic.

By the way, I trade with elves. Sometimes I forget to take shit out of the wooden bins and things get a little dirty, but usually their trade is okay and saves time chopping trees (especially in biomes with little-to-no wood).

[klefenz]

I wonder how much would the elves pay for the giant cock