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Author Topic: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC and NEW PLAYER INFO  (Read 2524071 times)

spazyak

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC and NEW PLAYER INFO
« Reply #32655 on: September 23, 2016, 05:14:48 pm »

Well, if any good came out ofthis is gave me the ideal to fuck over a dm I do not like.
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syvarris

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC and NEW PLAYER INFO
« Reply #32656 on: September 23, 2016, 05:32:43 pm »

Spoiler: Length: Long (click to show/hide)

Lenglon

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC and NEW PLAYER INFO
« Reply #32657 on: September 23, 2016, 06:10:56 pm »

okay, so our disagreement boils down to us both saying the other isn't thinking of the GM as a human that can and will make mistakes just like any other human.

You are saying that on-the-fly balancing will not be pinpoint.
I'm saying that systemic balancing will not be able to be personalized, because personalizing systemic balancing unbalances the system as a whole.

is that about right?


in the case of systemic balancing being personalized as needed, even ignoring how it unbalances the system as a whole, you retain the exact same issue that you yourself brought up of on-the-fly balancing not being pinpoint.

so if you're going to have the same problem to the same degree in both cases, doesn't that make putting in the massive level of extra effort required for systemic balancing completely pointless?

All you need is to have a ballpark "eh, good enough" system, and just let the GM fine-tune it as needed.
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((I don't think heating something that is right above us to a ridiculous degree is very smart. Worst case scenario we become +metal statues+. This is a finely crafted metal statue. It is encrusted with sharkmist and HMRC. On the item is an image of HMRC and Pancaek. Pancaek is laughing. The HMRC is melting. The artwork relates to the encasing of the HMRC in metal by Pancaek during the Mission of Many People.))

syvarris

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC and NEW PLAYER INFO
« Reply #32658 on: September 23, 2016, 06:31:42 pm »

okay, so our disagreement boils down to us both saying the other isn't thinking of the GM as a human that can and will make mistakes just like any other human.

You are saying that on-the-fly balancing will not be pinpoint.
I'm saying that systemic balancing will not be able to be personalized, because personalizing systemic balancing unbalances the system as a whole.

is that about right?

I... guess?  I pity this argument, ended before its time.  :(

Quote from: Lenglon
in the case of systemic balancing being personalized as needed, even ignoring how it unbalances the system as a whole, you retain the exact same issue that you yourself brought up of on-the-fly balancing not being pinpoint.

so if you're going to have the same problem to the same degree in both cases, doesn't that make putting in the massive level of extra effort required for systemic balancing completely pointless?

All you need is to have a ballpark "eh, good enough" system, and just let the GM fine-tune it as needed.

The key difference here is that if you balance the system extensively beforehand, you're doing it over a longer period with people who have no skin in the game.  You have time to think about it, rethink poor decisions, ask people to poke holes in the new system, ask if it ruins the fun, etc.  If you do decide to do away with an old, broken mechanic, you're not nerfing someone who has invested significant time into a character, and therefore not making anyone feel bad.

You'll end up with a result that is closer to the median of balancing, and are less likely to upset people in the process.  Yeah, it does take more time, but whether or not that time is worth it is entirely at the GM's discretion.

Lenglon

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC and NEW PLAYER INFO
« Reply #32659 on: September 23, 2016, 06:42:43 pm »

-snip-
The key difference here is that if you balance the system extensively beforehand, you're doing it over a longer period with people who have no skin in the game.  You have time to think about it, rethink poor decisions, ask people to poke holes in the new system, ask if it ruins the fun, etc.  If you do decide to do away with an old, broken mechanic, you're not nerfing someone who has invested significant time into a character, and therefore not making anyone feel bad.

You'll end up with a result that is closer to the median of balancing, and are less likely to upset people in the process.  Yeah, it does take more time, but whether or not that time is worth it is entirely at the GM's discretion.
I counter your theory with an example: ER Amps, and the infection of the Lurker.
Please name one person that became butthurt over that event. I consider the size of ER's population at that time to be a valid sample size.
It is a excellent example of an on-the-fly rebalance of a prolific overpowered tactic and mechanic, that resulted in a happier population with much more diverse playstyles following it.
I ran an amper and I highly approved of the change, the associated rework of all of EXO, and so on.

if a theory doesn't hold up to reality, then no matter how logical it may be, wrong is wrong.
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((I don't think heating something that is right above us to a ridiculous degree is very smart. Worst case scenario we become +metal statues+. This is a finely crafted metal statue. It is encrusted with sharkmist and HMRC. On the item is an image of HMRC and Pancaek. Pancaek is laughing. The HMRC is melting. The artwork relates to the encasing of the HMRC in metal by Pancaek during the Mission of Many People.))

Pancaek

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC and NEW PLAYER INFO
« Reply #32660 on: September 23, 2016, 07:03:06 pm »

Again, I'm brought to the Pancaek Problem: How do you kill a character with godlike magical power and extremely effective and cheap armor?  Exploit the one weakness of it being a pancake?  Can you come up with a solution here?  A solution which doesn't feel arbitrary, as the Amp Specialist and Nuke door incidents did?
Hey now. That mithril was pretty dang expensive, pimpin' bling bling ain't cheap yo. Pan was also at no point an actual pancake, even though that would have been kind of cool.
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Egan_BW

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC and NEW PLAYER INFO
« Reply #32661 on: September 23, 2016, 07:22:49 pm »

the mask was kinda pancaeklike.
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Lenglon

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC and NEW PLAYER INFO
« Reply #32663 on: September 23, 2016, 07:37:55 pm »

Yeah, the flat shape of the mask, plus it being fragile and inanimate, was more or less what I was going for.  Mostly just making a joke, though.
Sy, I pm'd you a rather straightforward hardcounter to it.
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((I don't think heating something that is right above us to a ridiculous degree is very smart. Worst case scenario we become +metal statues+. This is a finely crafted metal statue. It is encrusted with sharkmist and HMRC. On the item is an image of HMRC and Pancaek. Pancaek is laughing. The HMRC is melting. The artwork relates to the encasing of the HMRC in metal by Pancaek during the Mission of Many People.))

Pancaek

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC and NEW PLAYER INFO
« Reply #32664 on: September 23, 2016, 07:39:20 pm »

It never really ocurred to me that the mask looked like a pancake, deep. Kinda neat though.
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piecewise

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC and NEW PLAYER INFO
« Reply #32666 on: September 23, 2016, 07:43:30 pm »

So... anyone wanna make some characters via the new rules? So I can see what the numbers are like and all before I start stating limbs and magic and stuff?

spazyak

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC and NEW PLAYER INFO
« Reply #32667 on: September 23, 2016, 08:13:33 pm »

Hmm Can't find them. .
Anyways,  thanks to Lenglom  I kiled off my current dnd character with a suicide attack (fucking up the big bad in the process by breaking both his legs by causing him to slip off a  ledge down torwards the ground where he broke both legs and got impaled through the stomache by my character, forced to craw through a bunch of nails and caltrops, covered in hot coals, stabbed through one arm with multiple wooden stakes, teeth nocked out, two fingers removed, and one eye gouged) and am now working on trolling the dick of a dm I have. I am writing up a combination of pun pun and old man henderson.
If this works out, I will be very...happy
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GENERATION 31:
The first time you see this, copy it into your signature on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
Ravioli Ravioli, the old broad died so now I play a Demon Loli.
Sig-texts!

syvarris

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC and NEW PLAYER INFO
« Reply #32668 on: September 23, 2016, 08:20:53 pm »

Spoiler: Sure (click to show/hide)

Ozarck

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC and NEW PLAYER INFO
« Reply #32669 on: September 23, 2016, 08:49:35 pm »

link the rules! dang it, I don't want to have to scroll back past that firestorm for rules!
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