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[Radio Controlled]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I kinda feel the power creep is more due to equipment and ridiculous suits and armor, and less due to roll related mechanics.

As for rolls, I think a system where you go to a d60 (or even d600, though that's stretching it) might work. 1-10 on the d60 equals a 1 on the d6, 11-20 for a 2 etc. That way, you can easily apply smaller bonuses and penalties, both from equipment and 'environmental' sources (eg. +3 to con due to superior position, -11 to dex due to a sprained ankle, +5 to charisma rolls due to pheromone genemod) while keeping the interpretation easy and straightforward.

if you roll a d60, but only periods of 10 matter, and you give yourself a +5 to your roll, essentially what you're doing is just removing a 1/12 chance of getting a 7, and adding a 1/12 chance of getting a 7. It doesn't really have that much of an effect on the roll, just moves it over a bit.
This is the same reason why we created decompensators, and eventually moved away from straight bonuses and maluses to our current system.

And this is also why the system I suggested uses multiple dice, to offset probabilities while keeping every possibility possible, at least in theory, because the best thing about RTD IMHO is that each possible roll means a distinct possible outcome, rather than simply succeed/fail like most d20 systems.

yay probability and statistics are fun

You could easily keep the system we currently have (roll results is interpreted according to char skill level) and slot this into it, the things that alter rolls would be rather small things. But yeah, it would mostly just give you slightly higher or lower results (with higher usually being better on the whole), allowing for more granularity than straight +1's. It's more of a modification to the current system than a wholly new one.

[Ozarck]

I think requiring a more dedicated specialization in one weapon might help. And for character generation, you start with all zeroes, but can take one plus and one minus in stats and in skills. thus, you might have a plus in exotic, but can use only the solid light generator or demigod touch or whatever. everyone gets the same basic skill with grenades. Of course, someone could choose grenade as their specialization. That narrows down the skill variances, bringing a more rtd simplicity, and makes weapon choice essential early on. it's less flexible though, but if you want something more in the line of classic rtd, that's a price you have to pay.

[Harry Baldman]

Robot overlords are probably ER's most unappealing feature, really. Nobody should ever be able to laugh off weapons fire. Armor should give a chance of surviving a hit, not mitigate the damage entirely. I mean, given that our gauss rifles are supposed to be anti-tank rifle equivalents, it seems plainly unrealistic that a piddly polymer longcoat could be anything more than tissue paper before it, for instance.

Also, don't think that a system that decreases randomness is particularly fun in an RTD. Randomness is where the fun actually comes from. There is absolutely nothing more fucking dull than somebody who rolls all 5s all the time, for instance. Getting a +1 to something should be something quite exceptional, and +2s ought to be practically unheard of. And even when they're found, they ought to be for progressively narrower specializations.

[spazyak]

You know what m26 should do, try to comunicate with orgyverse. Oh and make a tv station off orgyverse

[Lenglon]

Robot overlords are probably ER's most unappealing feature, really. Nobody should ever be able to laugh off weapons fire. Armor should give a chance of surviving a hit, not mitigate the damage entirely. I mean, given that our gauss rifles are supposed to be anti-tank rifle equivalents, it seems plainly unrealistic that a piddly polymer longcoat could be anything more than tissue paper before it, for instance.

Also, don't think that a system that decreases randomness is particularly fun in an RTD. Randomness is where the fun actually comes from. There is absolutely nothing more fucking dull than somebody who rolls all 5s all the time, for instance. Getting a +1 to something should be something quite exceptional, and +2s ought to be practically unheard of. And even when they're found, they ought to be for progressively narrower specializations.

So you want things more akin to how minimalists play out? where any action no matter how stupid has a comparable chance of success, because the roll of the dice trumps all?

I enjoy playing minimalists sometimes, but they're absolutely horrible for any long-term gameplay or character, and I don't want that for ER. I'm perfectly fine with the reduction in randomness, and having your action be more important than your luck. Randomness is where the fun in a minimalist comes from, but games with actual world-building and character interactions and puzzles and such have fun from story and challenge, things a pure-randomness game innately destroys.

I do however agree with you that robot overlords are problematic. They do not bleed, do not feel pain, cannot get sick, cannot be poisoned, are unharmed by vacuum, and cannot be physically rendered unconsious. Those properties alone make them extremely durable compared to a normal teammate, and robobodies are given as a reward for having the user's body essentially destroyed, one that you have to spend tokens to opt out of. toss in any form of armoring for your new robo-teammate and they're essentially never at risk from anything but mindfuck.

[NJW2000]

Robot overlords are probably ER's most unappealing feature, really. Nobody should ever be able to laugh off weapons fire. Armor should give a chance of surviving a hit, not mitigate the damage entirely. I mean, given that our gauss rifles are supposed to be anti-tank rifle equivalents, it seems plainly unrealistic that a piddly polymer longcoat could be anything more than tissue paper before it, for instance.

Also, don't think that a system that decreases randomness is particularly fun in an RTD. Randomness is where the fun actually comes from. There is absolutely nothing more fucking dull than somebody who rolls all 5s all the time, for instance. Getting a +1 to something should be something quite exceptional, and +2s ought to be practically unheard of. And even when they're found, they ought to be for progressively narrower specializations.

So you want things more akin to how minimalists play out? where any action no matter how stupid has a comparable chance of success, because the roll of the dice trumps all?

I enjoy playing minimalists sometimes, but they're absolutely horrible for any long-term gameplay or character, and I don't want that for ER. I'm perfectly fine with the reduction in randomness, and having your action be more important than your luck. Randomness is where the fun in a minimalist comes from, but games with actual world-building and character interactions and puzzles and such have fun from story and challenge, things a pure-randomness game innately destroys.

I do however agree with you that robot overlords are problematic. They do not bleed, do not feel pain, cannot get sick, cannot be poisoned, are unharmed by vacuum, and cannot be physically rendered unconsious. Those properties alone make them extremely durable compared to a normal teammate, and robobodies are given as a reward for having the user's body essentially destroyed, one that you have to spend tokens to opt out of. toss in any form of armoring for your new robo-teammate and they're essentially never at risk from anything but mindfuck.

I think he was more talking about miya-level ultratanks with more massive concealed weapons than a shipment of "grand pianos" from Houston to Berlin in 1939.

I quite like the generic robobodies myself. It's true that they're a lot stronger than humans (though just so much tinfoil compared to vets) but I think that this produces an interesting dilemna in which in order to take the most efficient path, one must do something dehumanizing, weird, and under taboo, which pretty much garauntees that your character is now firmly a part of ARM and no longer pretends to have any normal relation to everyday humanity. ER is good in that there are a lot of choices about how human or inhuman you are: some people robiticize, like Miya, at the top, and view themselves as only a mind, while others like Pancaek intentionally distance themselves from any pretense at humanity, existing in as twisted and arcane a form as possible, though yet more still hold on to their humanity like Milno, even after everything.

It's a very interesting RP point which also meaningfully impacts on the game.

[TinFoilTopHat]

Sooo, basically DnD?

Jesus, ER in DND would take years.

When you think about it, it already has taken years.

[TheBiggerFish]

Sooo, basically DnD?

Jesus, ER in DND would take years.

When you think about it, it already has taken years.

It would have taken MORE years.

[Dorsidwarf]

I think that robot overlords are less the problem, and more the way they've been able to proliferate with the more recent explosion of objectively-superior battlesuit-likes from Hep, and the steep increase of players ( M1 consisted of, what, 5 players? M27 is more like 50) over a period of time more than twice what any one character was supposed to reasonably experience is probbably why the Robot Overlord Line is so pronounced.
When Miyamoto had Gilgamesh and was stomping around like god on earth, that was badass and immensely cool, but when you've got entire assault teams of nothing but some of the most dangerous men for parsecs driving battlesuits, battlesuit-alikes, and an Avatar Of War psychic doom body...

[kj1225]

Nah, Robot overlords have always been unfun. Especially since they tend to get more power over other inmates. Really, I feel it should be the opposite because who'd want someone that's basically indestructible leading you into a death trap? Of course, I want the removal of all players being able to have more power over others except for in terms of weaponry.

[piecewise]

Gonna so a ER talk here in a bit.

If you have questions, get them up.

[Harry Baldman]

I think he was more talking about miya-level ultratanks with more massive concealed weapons than a shipment of "grand pianos" from Houston to Berlin in 1939.

I was, actually. I think it hurts the game in a big way to have the people with the equipment and skills exceed the fighting power of regular schlubs by whole orders of magnitude rather than merely, say, two to five times. It just turns into DBZ at a certain point, you know? And more often than not you're not the guy who turns into a giant Aryan monkey in that situation.

So you want things more akin to how minimalists play out? where any action no matter how stupid has a comparable chance of success, because the roll of the dice trumps all?

I enjoy playing minimalists sometimes, but they're absolutely horrible for any long-term gameplay or character, and I don't want that for ER. I'm perfectly fine with the reduction in randomness, and having your action be more important than your luck. Randomness is where the fun in a minimalist comes from, but games with actual world-building and character interactions and puzzles and such have fun from story and challenge, things a pure-randomness game innately destroys.

Lowering availability of power =/= removal of all internal logic.

Good storytelling and world-building --> strong internal logic.

Randomness --> greater number of possible end states, including failure.

Possibility of failure --> challenge.

Lower amount of available power --> increased reliance on internal logic (examples: character with +2 to diplomacy compared to character with +20).

What I mean = opposite of what you seem to think I mean.

[Radio Controlled]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Robot overlords are probably ER's most unappealing feature, really. Nobody should ever be able to laugh off weapons fire. Armor should give a chance of surviving a hit, not mitigate the damage entirely. I mean, given that our gauss rifles are supposed to be anti-tank rifle equivalents, it seems plainly unrealistic that a piddly polymer longcoat could be anything more than tissue paper before it, for instance.

Also, don't think that a system that decreases randomness is particularly fun in an RTD. Randomness is where the fun actually comes from. There is absolutely nothing more fucking dull than somebody who rolls all 5s all the time, for instance. Getting a +1 to something should be something quite exceptional, and +2s ought to be practically unheard of. And even when they're found, they ought to be for progressively narrower specializations.

So you want things more akin to how minimalists play out? where any action no matter how stupid has a comparable chance of success, because the roll of the dice trumps all?

I enjoy playing minimalists sometimes, but they're absolutely horrible for any long-term gameplay or character, and I don't want that for ER. I'm perfectly fine with the reduction in randomness, and having your action be more important than your luck. Randomness is where the fun in a minimalist comes from, but games with actual world-building and character interactions and puzzles and such have fun from story and challenge, things a pure-randomness game innately destroys.

I do however agree with you that robot overlords are problematic. They do not bleed, do not feel pain, cannot get sick, cannot be poisoned, are unharmed by vacuum, and cannot be physically rendered unconsious. Those properties alone make them extremely durable compared to a normal teammate, and robobodies are given as a reward for having the user's body essentially destroyed, one that you have to spend tokens to opt out of. toss in any form of armoring for your new robo-teammate and they're essentially never at risk from anything but mindfuck.

I think he was more talking about miya-level ultratanks with more massive concealed weapons than a shipment of "grand pianos" from Houston to Berlin in 1939.

I quite like the generic robobodies myself. It's true that they're a lot stronger than humans (though just so much tinfoil compared to vets) but I think that this produces an interesting dilemna in which in order to take the most efficient path, one must do something dehumanizing, weird, and under taboo, which pretty much garauntees that your character is now firmly a part of ARM and no longer pretends to have any normal relation to everyday humanity. ER is good in that there are a lot of choices about how human or inhuman you are: some people robiticize, like Miya, at the top, and view themselves as only a mind, while others like Pancaek intentionally distance themselves from any pretense at humanity, existing in as twisted and arcane a form as possible, though yet more still hold on to their humanity like Milno, even after everything.

It's a very interesting RP point which also meaningfully impacts on the game.

Heh, that's an interesting way to describe his hidden weapons, though I feel like I'm missing a reference somewhere. And hell, even the latter got involuntarily infused with alien bacteria into an unholy symbiosis he couldn't get rid of even if he wanted, so it seems the road to becoming a supervet means giving up some of your precious humanity, whether you want it or not!

Anyways, I'd like to point out that with synthflesh not being a thing anymore very soon, at least avatars won't be around anymore to ultratank things. Also that, even though we haven't seen it at work a lot yet, power level apartheid segregation should help a little with the overpoweredness, though it wouldn't actually solve it, just make it so lower level chars don't have to play second fiddle all the time, while the ultravets can go get their asses handed to them by appropriately powerful enemies.

As for the balance between randomness and predictability, that's always a hard one. I wouldn't want too much randomness (one can go play something minimalist to fill that need), but 'constant 5s' is indeed also not a recipe for exiting gameplay. And in general, I think weird/over the top shit only stays special for long when the world around it is trying to go for 'normalcy' (a mission that cocks up spectacularly isn't very special when everybody tries to intentionally fail all the time). Gotta have that contrast.

EDIT: ninja'd by the bald man.

[Lenglon]

-redacted for space-

So long as you don't make it so <Shoot Alien with BB gun by Newbie swinging upside down from a bungee cord at a target 1000ft away> and <Shoot Alien with Gauss Cannon by SuperVet with bipod, scope, and several minutes to aim at a target 100ft away> both epic fail on a 1, major fail on 2, minor fail on 3, glance it on 4 for cosmetic damage, perfect headshot for instant-kill on 5, and shoot through eyeballs and into skull of alien behind it for a double-kill on a 6.

the problem is when you make it so random and reliant on the dice that the circumstances don't matter, just the "shoot the target" part. both are possible in-setting without breaking internal logic, but if the details of the situation, the target, your equipment, your skill level, etc, all don't matter and it's just the dice, then why do you even care anymore?

might as well run around naked throwing pebbles at the monstrosities, it's equally as likely to work as anything else.

[syvarris]

Sooo, basically DnD?

Jesus, ER in DND would take years.

I sat in on a friend's DnD game once and one fight lasted an hour.

*spittake*

they finished a whole fight in an hour?

My exact thoughts when I read that post.  I've had fights in DnD which took multiple sessions to resolve.


@System discussion
I agree with Lenglon--minimalists are horrible.  The problem is, it's very hard to have a constant progression without eventually having someone get lucky enough to become nigh-invincible.

I think the easiest way to solve it would be to just reduce the number of extremely powerful items.  No battlesuits.  No piezoelectric shard launchers.  No amps.  No robotic bodies.  If even the most skilled guy is still vulnerable to the same stuff the newbies are vulnerable to, they'll still have to be careful.  Less careful, sure, but they will be able to die.  Yes, this would kill Tinker (;-;) but it would be worth it.

Alternatively, we could take a page from Paris and just retire supervet level characters.  If you get too strong for the game, you have to make a new character and get some NG+ type benefits.