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[Empiricist]

Judging by our track record, it may be an unpopular idea since the best way to make people fail missions and perma-die seems to be to give them a simple menial task with no risk at all and watch nature take it's course. Which whilst being utterly hilarious, it may ruin suspension of disbelief if the UWM notes that and just bombards us with harmless crates that we have to open

[Devastator]

I'm expecting it's an unpopular idea because people want to win.  Losing is hard and can be sad, and nobody wants to be sad, even if it makes the happy all the sweeter, so to speak.

I mean, look at Nik up there.  I suggest a reason why the AoP might not be considered dead in the manip overload (none of the PCs died in it, therefore it can't be counted on for a kill, and there was nothing in the turns that confirmed it happening)

And Nik stresses again, that it MUST have died, and it is super rare and important, such that it's destruction would override even concieving of mission failure.

Same with the green storm.  It allows for unmatched teamwork and fives at will, seemingly without consequences, but I'm assuming too much about it because it will only allow people to curbstomp about 85% of all missions, not every last one of them.

When you've got a game like this one, there's no way to contribute to it's results.  As such, there's no place for a misanthrope like myself, as the source of pleasure is the interplay between people.

[Nikitian]

Actually, if it's that way, I cannot say anything against it. When I put a barrel to my temple and pull a trigger, I do not expect to hear anything other than *click* and live. It's just unsportsmanlike; so yes, I concede the point to you as far as it really takes place. It does sometimes; not often, as far as I know (Mesk's death, dammit), but still possibly happens at times, I suppose. In Piecewise we trust.

(And, well, that unmitigated fact is the only thing between M21 survival and TPK, so I kind of have to bet on it. A beautiful, vicious cycle of betting your life on your own survival, isn't it? )

[Execute/Dumbo.exe]

This is a bit off topic, but when did laser rifles go from 30 second to 120 second clips?  Were larger/more advanced clips issued to replace the older, lower capacity versions?

That may be the new bluedarite batteries, those things are basically crystal batteries, grown by supplying insane about of electricity to them, they can't be recharged and they release radiation exponentially more relative to it's size, but it has amazing energy storage ability.
I think, either that, or you could just be going insane.

[Ozarck]

Actually, if it's that way, I cannot say anything against it. When I put a barrel to my temple and pull a trigger, I do not expect to hear anything other than *click* and live. It's just unsportsmanlike; so yes, I concede the point to you as far as it really takes place. It does sometimes; not often, as far as I know (Mesk's death, dammit), but still possibly happens at times, I suppose. In Piecewise we trust.

(And, well, that unmitigated fact is the only thing between M21 survival and TPK, so I kind of have to bet on it. A beautiful, vicious cycle of betting your life on your own survival, isn't it? )

Mesk's death is part of a situation that lean a little toward devastator's point - the entire team but one survived a "rocks fall, everybody dies" situation, per word of GM in his Let's Play. Xan's survival of hte resulting rescue fiasco, however, was the result more of "giving the GM ideas" than mercy.

Permadeaths have happened on missions 2, 4, 6, 7, 11, 12b, 14, 15 (at least 32+a Xan), 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20s (4 noobs), 22. Of the 34 dead on the wiki page, six had more than one mission under their belt, and arguably only one or two of those (Jim and Mesk) were of great use to the team. Maybe others were too, I haven't read all the missions yet. But Stacy and May seemed more Comic Relief than Action Hero (definitive proof that this is a tragedy - in an action movie the comic relief always lives )

[Lenglon]

Devastator is only counting permadeaths as deaths. Which is wrong and dumb. tempdeaths aren't called being *knocked out* for a reason - the character does actually die, they just haven't had their brain matter so damaged that even sci-fi-space-healing can't revive them. I see no reason to pander to his desire to watch other players abandon characters they put effort into and care about just for the sake of putting people through pain. that's spiteful and stupid. If he feels death doesn't have enough impact then maybe he should try making a character he actually gives a damn about instead of an obviously throwaway character that:

I did everything I could to get killed

he WANTS to have killed off.

And you want to know what the biggest penalty is with the fucking Green Storm? I don't get to roll to resist it. I don't get to even try to run my own character. I'm not supposed to even know what my own character was doing. It's literally a "Someone not even on the mission asked PW to kick me out of the game and run my character for me, so that instantly happens and I get no say in it or to even RP that I knew it ever happened".

THAT is what is offensive about Green Storm. Its a giant middle finger to me as a player and directly says that Radio Controlled has the right to kick me from the game at will.

Devastator, you want more permadeaths and more lethal missions. I want LESS lethal missions, with worse gameplay from the players being a valid option, causing more tempdeaths but with the reasonable hope of avoiding permadeaths unless someone does something critically stupid. and I don't want people that opt into trying to actually being involved, taking risks, and knowingly going on missions that are going to objectively be worse-managed, to have to worry that they're going to be permakilled just to please some sadistic spectator that doesn't even care about his own character.
I want a low-penalty Green Storm that is designed to allow the last man standing on a mission to have massive stat boosts and Steve guidance / overriding stupid decisions, in order to allow said last man standing to collect the bodies / heads of the fallen and get out of there. failing the mission but preventing a massive permadeath teamwipe. That would be a reasonable use of Green Storm.

[Ozarck]

Lenglon makes an interesting point: did Miya jump the gun on initiating Green Storm? If so, Why? Would leaving the Deep Team to die, or possibly partially survive maybe, have been better or a) mission completion, and b) retaining Steve's secrecy about his trump? After all, had Shallow team gotten their shit together, they might have been able to change the outcome. On the other hand, it may have been allowing character freedom which caused the issue to begin with - approaching the suspicious container when the team was unprepared, after hints that this floor would be fun and ... you know, all the bodies.

I understand Lenglon's desire not to be controlled. I have a similar issue, which is part of why I reacted so badly to ... shenanigans. Especially when someone else was able to skirt the edges of allowable

On the other hand, most of us were convicts. Convicts have no rights. the HMRc was essentially a death sentence to begin with, the UWM is totalitarian and in varying states of tyranny, and Steve himself is a cold, unfeeling Amalgamation which cares nothing for your suffering.

As for flexibility for personal characters ... I think it kinda come and goes, and seems somewhat situational. Is it a little sad to me that there is an overriding, cosmic story arc that dominates game progression in what the OP of the game calls a dark comedy? I don't know. I joined much to late to quibble about that

Lenglon, I think you and your character were put in a really uncomfortable situation for both of you, but I do think it was IC realistic. Sorry. I do sympathize though.

Oh, and i agree that tempdeaths are deaths IC, but they generally have no ooc penalties unless certain conditions are met. Death is cheap.

And finally, I agree that Devastator is probably protesting too much, due to his "misanthropic" desire for ... I don't know, a roguelike experience? Create hundreds of disposable characters, spend time and energy building them up from pathetic nothingness to maybe skillful, only to have them die to a stubbed toe, or frostbite, or a goddamned green rat when they are level 17 and killing death yaks and orc warriors by the dozens. Yes, Devastator, interpersonal relationships and interactions have been a significant part of the fun of this game since mission one. Even between a living character and a temp-dead one. Especially between a living one and a temp-dead one

[Yoink]

I have to say, the whole 'Green Storm' thing did and does seem pretty lame.
Not going to wade into this argument any further, just throwing out my two cents. I don't have a problem with people getting chewed out for screwing up, but actions being cancelled out (either by Green Storm or because someone tells Steve to shock them unconscious before they can act, which is usually pretty metagamey) sucks.

[Execute/Dumbo.exe]

So, basically, you want a mario platformer (Not too difficult, and if you screw up enough times, you get something that allows you to salvage the mission), and Devestator wants a rougelike (Very difficult, though fair most of the time, and the only second chances you get are riddled with with strings attached).
You wanna tell your own story with the setting supplied, Devestator wants to have a game, is this right?

Honestly, Lenglon, I think you may be going into this with the wrong expectations, your character is already starting to get past the difficulty hump and is starting to go the way of Jim, ER is just not designed to contain characters for this long.
Jesus that was worded terribly, forget this post, please.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Maybe we should just make the tempdeath penalties more severe? Right now the M22 people who temp-died basically got a point reduction for their levelup, they didn't actually suffer any damage. Why not just roll some twelve dice, one for each stat/skill, and degrade each that isn't a 4+ by one?** Then they can add their standard level-up points. This way higher level characters are penalized more severely, since higher levels cost more in points, but they should be dying less often anyway. Same would apply to Green Storm, with the caveat that the characters would have to be able to resist being used in the system, same way a battlesuit pilot can counter someone hitting the hatch release. If the character is conscious and doesn't want to get controlled (i.e. his situation is not hopeless yet, or so he thinks) he should be able to have that option. With the system no longer being secret, I believe this should quell most arguments against it being used.

**(or just 4, split between STR/DEX/END(physical stats), CHA/MIND/INTU(mental stats), CON/UNCON/EXO(weapon skills), and HANDI/MED/AUX/GENKNO(utility skills), all stats/skills in the block degrading by 1 instead; and yes, Fate does not degrade.)

[Lenglon]

Lenglon, I think you and your character were put in a really uncomfortable situation for both of you, but I do think it was IC realistic. Sorry. I do sympathize though.

Actually I was the least affected of everyone. I was tempdead and unable to percieve or act in any way. I don't deserve your sympathy - everyone ELSE on deep team does, but i don't.

Maybe we should just make the tempdeath penalties more severe? Right now the M22 people who temp-died basically got a point reduction for their levelup, they didn't actually suffer any damage. Why not just roll some twelve dice, one for each stat/skill, and degrade each that isn't a 4+ by one?** Then they can add their standard level-up points. This way higher level characters are penalized more severely, since higher levels cost more in points, but they should be dying less often anyway. Same would apply to Green Storm, with the caveat that the characters would have to be able to resist being used in the system, same way a battlesuit pilot can counter someone hitting the hatch release. If the character is conscious and doesn't want to get controlled (i.e. his situation is not hopeless yet, or so he thinks) he should be able to have that option. With the system no longer being secret, I believe this should quell most arguments against it being used.

**(or just 4, split between STR/DEX/END(physical stats), CHA/MIND/INTU(mental stats), CON/UNCON/EXO(weapon skills), and HANDI/MED/AUX/GENKNO(utility skills), all stats/skills in the block degrading by 1 instead; and yes, Fate does not degrade.)

This, from my perspective at least, will not help. but I'm campaigning for things that would make tempdeaths more common.

[Nunzillor]

Just gonna say, I don't think anyone jumped the gun with the initiation of green storm.  Pretty much everyone on Deep Team would have died (permanently) without it, since the contingency was either a nuke or a manip overload without any extraction.

[AoshimaMichio]

This is a bit off topic, but when did laser rifles go from 30 second to 120 second clips?  Were larger/more advanced clips issued to replace the older, lower capacity versions?

Capacity was upgraded when Sudden Reality Shift took place. Retroactively. As far as I know, it has nothing to do with blueradite as ED suggested.

[adwarf]

And you want to know what the biggest penalty is with the fucking Green Storm? I don't get to roll to resist it. I don't get to even try to run my own character. I'm not supposed to even know what my own character was doing. It's literally a "Someone not even on the mission asked PW to kick me out of the game and run my character for me, so that instantly happens and I get no say in it or to even RP that I knew it ever happened".

This will be my only comment on this, but honestly this entire reason right here is rather idiotic. You're getting pissed at something you've known about since you joined the game Lenglon.

Sure, we're the players. Sure, we made our characters and get to play them as we made them. However, our character's are a part of ARM, and in some cases formerly meant to be HMRC/formerly HMRC. We've all been connected to Steve since the moment our character was either forced into HMRC or joined ARM.

This is how Steve operates, he isn't going to send a bunch of people out without some form of contingency plan to ensure he can actually gain something from all of it. You're complaining about lack of freedom when you should realize that Piecewise is already giving us a ton of freedom. He's letting us play characters in an organization run by an AI who conceivably wants to win the war he started. Instead of Steve micromanging us into being killing machines all suited in Avatars leading Sod contingents into glorious victory we get to act like soldiers under ARM, and thus Steve. What you're complaining about here is a literal part of this game universe that has been in since Mission 1, so I doubt this entire thing is going to sway your opinion in anyway, but I'm still typing it out.

Anyway, another thing I need to point out is that the event your pissed over. The entire part where Miya saved your asses by getting Steve to level the playing field. You're pissed that Miya got Steve to help the party against a fucking warmachine that can probably wipe out entire damn planets by itself. You should be thanking  them for saving your damn character's life, not temp-death life, but permadeath life. Its highly likely that without Steve stepping in several of you would be permanently dead, and so you're pissed that your character gets to continue existing.

[Lenglon]

adwarf, your first point is incorrect. all ARM have the option to just walk away, and the most control Steve has ever exercised is the shock implants, and those are generally used with discretion. all HMRC and ARM typically have significant freedom under Steve. Green Storm - taking full mind and body control away from the players without a single roll - is very much something new and a very big escalation. Where previously the most that could happen is Steve could shock you unconscious or dead.

to address your paragraph of disconnected statements piece by piece:
Steve did and does send a bunch of people out without some form of contingency plan. That's the basic premise of the HMRC.
Of course I'm complaining of lack of freedom - I'm not actually getting to play a character.
Avatar Killmachines are large, expensive, and generally unecessary. we were leading a sod contingent in M22.
The Green Storm previously was not a thing at all, and it has never been used up to this point. It is very much something new, don't be crazy.

as for your second point, you're assuming that the entire shallow team was completely helpless and useless. that the collected deep team minus the one casualty it had taken (Lyra) was completely helpless. that, in short, the mission was one that literally could not be won by the players. that is the base assumption you have to make to justify activating Green Storm, and it was way too early to be making that judgement call. Yes, I am fucking complaining about something that had a decent chance of saving my character's permadeath life, because it's was an intrusive, abusive action that was made by someone that wasn't on the mission and had no part in it. I'm pissed that my character isn't my character anymore, it's Radio Controlled's.