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[Empiricist]

I might be able to give everyone a potion...thats a thing I could do...

Yay! Supernatural drinks of questionable origin and safety!

[PyroDesu]

Yes, cause messing with your genes and biochemistry is certainly not a risky thing at all.

Not when you can have full knowledge of any effects - which the program allows. You want genemodding to be dangerous, make the procedure dangerous.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I'm with Syv in that nothing through Tinker should be randomized, for good or bad - biotech, engineering, nothing. It's already proven to effectively be a very much near-perfect simulator of reality, so there's no reason that players shouldn't be able to see effects like they would occur in reality. It also just means people will reroll and reroll and reroll until they get what they want, which is irritating to both player and GM. And, if you hide the rolls, that means that players are able to, without knowing, inflict horrific, possibly permanently fatal damage upon themselves and others by trying to be creative. It's a terrible idea from an in-game standpoint, it's a horrible idea from a mechanics standpoint. As Syv said - if people want to use dice to possibly improve themselves, they go to the Doctor.

Tinker is anything but a perfect reality simulator. It does not simulate matter interaction on a molecular level, it uses pre-defined interaction principles to show you what will happen. I doubt it can even be used to develop new chemical substances.

That's also the reason why alien artifacts and manipulators are black-boxed inside of Tinker. It lacks the capability to meaningfully realize any changes done to the mechanics of those devices because their operating principles are only understood enough to replicate them. That's also why the Doktor's experiments always have their human form in there - unless their capabilities are completely scanned in, the sim does not know what they must do. By extension of that, simulating something as complex as an organism's development from modified DNA, is completely beyond it.

[Xantalos]

Yes, cause messing with your genes and biochemistry is certainly not a risky thing at all.

Of courSTAN not.

[PyroDesu]

I'm with Syv in that nothing through Tinker should be randomized, for good or bad - biotech, engineering, nothing. It's already proven to effectively be a very much near-perfect simulator of reality, so there's no reason that players shouldn't be able to see effects like they would occur in reality. It also just means people will reroll and reroll and reroll until they get what they want, which is irritating to both player and GM. And, if you hide the rolls, that means that players are able to, without knowing, inflict horrific, possibly permanently fatal damage upon themselves and others by trying to be creative. It's a terrible idea from an in-game standpoint, it's a horrible idea from a mechanics standpoint. As Syv said - if people want to use dice to possibly improve themselves, they go to the Doctor.

Tinker is anything but a perfect reality simulator. It does not simulate matter interaction on a molecular level, it uses pre-defined interaction principles to show you what will happen. I doubt it can even be used to develop new chemical substances.

That's also the reason why alien artifacts and manipulators are black-boxed inside of Tinker. It lacks the capability to meaningfully realize any changes done to the mechanics of those devices because their operating principles are only understood enough to replicate them. That's also why the Doktor's experiments always have their human form in there - unless their capabilities are completely scanned in, the sim does not know what they must do. By extension of that, simulating something as complex as an organism's development from modified DNA, is completely beyond it.

Then you wouldn't be able to do biotech very well in it anyways and the whole conversation is pointless.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I'm with Syv in that nothing through Tinker should be randomized, for good or bad - biotech, engineering, nothing. It's already proven to effectively be a very much near-perfect simulator of reality, so there's no reason that players shouldn't be able to see effects like they would occur in reality. It also just means people will reroll and reroll and reroll until they get what they want, which is irritating to both player and GM. And, if you hide the rolls, that means that players are able to, without knowing, inflict horrific, possibly permanently fatal damage upon themselves and others by trying to be creative. It's a terrible idea from an in-game standpoint, it's a horrible idea from a mechanics standpoint. As Syv said - if people want to use dice to possibly improve themselves, they go to the Doctor.

Tinker is anything but a perfect reality simulator. It does not simulate matter interaction on a molecular level, it uses pre-defined interaction principles to show you what will happen. I doubt it can even be used to develop new chemical substances.

That's also the reason why alien artifacts and manipulators are black-boxed inside of Tinker. It lacks the capability to meaningfully realize any changes done to the mechanics of those devices because their operating principles are only understood enough to replicate them. That's also why the Doktor's experiments always have their human form in there - unless their capabilities are completely scanned in, the sim does not know what they must do. By extension of that, simulating something as complex as an organism's development from modified DNA, is completely beyond it.

Then you wouldn't be able to do biotech very well in it anyways and the whole conversation is pointless.

We can tinker outside of Tinker. Am I the only one (in character and out) that actually remembers that? We have a whole biochemistry forge at Heph for rapid genemod testing, and the Doktor could provide similar facilities on the Sword.

[PyroDesu]

I'm with Syv in that nothing through Tinker should be randomized, for good or bad - biotech, engineering, nothing. It's already proven to effectively be a very much near-perfect simulator of reality, so there's no reason that players shouldn't be able to see effects like they would occur in reality. It also just means people will reroll and reroll and reroll until they get what they want, which is irritating to both player and GM. And, if you hide the rolls, that means that players are able to, without knowing, inflict horrific, possibly permanently fatal damage upon themselves and others by trying to be creative. It's a terrible idea from an in-game standpoint, it's a horrible idea from a mechanics standpoint. As Syv said - if people want to use dice to possibly improve themselves, they go to the Doctor.

Tinker is anything but a perfect reality simulator. It does not simulate matter interaction on a molecular level, it uses pre-defined interaction principles to show you what will happen. I doubt it can even be used to develop new chemical substances.

That's also the reason why alien artifacts and manipulators are black-boxed inside of Tinker. It lacks the capability to meaningfully realize any changes done to the mechanics of those devices because their operating principles are only understood enough to replicate them. That's also why the Doktor's experiments always have their human form in there - unless their capabilities are completely scanned in, the sim does not know what they must do. By extension of that, simulating something as complex as an organism's development from modified DNA, is completely beyond it.

Then you wouldn't be able to do biotech very well in it anyways and the whole conversation is pointless.

We can tinker outside of Tinker. Am I the only one (in character and out) that actually remembers that? We have a whole biochemistry forge at Heph for rapid genemod testing, and the Doktor could provide similar facilities on the Sword.

I'm fairly sure that all of this conversation revolves about those on the Sword being able to tinker about with biology, not us on Hephaestus - I'm sure Saint could start on the path to Doctorhood as soon as he wanted (also, didn't we get those biochemistry forges to produce new brain patterns for sods?). As for the Doctor himself setting up similar facilities, or opening up such facilities to the crew... I'm not so sure about that. Up to PW, really.

[Harry Baldman]

I'm with Syv in that nothing through Tinker should be randomized, for good or bad - biotech, engineering, nothing. It's already proven to effectively be a very much near-perfect simulator of reality, so there's no reason that players shouldn't be able to see effects like they would occur in reality. It also just means people will reroll and reroll and reroll until they get what they want, which is irritating to both player and GM. And, if you hide the rolls, that means that players are able to, without knowing, inflict horrific, possibly permanently fatal damage upon themselves and others by trying to be creative. It's a terrible idea from an in-game standpoint, it's a horrible idea from a mechanics standpoint. As Syv said - if people want to use dice to possibly improve themselves, they go to the Doctor.

I'm quite the proponent of the idea that if a GM doesn't know, then the clear answer is to roll for it to attain certainty.

That's an unimaginably appalling idea, because it needlessly cripples those who take the time to explain how something works. Like that, if someone says to PW, for example, I want a fusion bomb that doesn't use a fission ignition device, it's either a flat-out no or it's fine, because that's easy for the GM to understand. But if you say you want a fusion bomb without a fission ignition device, here's how it could work in reality, that gives you a roll because the GM (no offense, PW) doesn't know the underlying principles behind what you said and has to rely on how you said it would work. It improves nothing about the game and punishes those who would deign to design something on real-world principles.

In my opinion, trying to be creative possibly inflicting fatal, permanent damage upon yourself or others is the way it should be - that's how loose incautiously-applied science works, does it not? Whatever one's good intentions may be, there should naturally be a risk that their ingenious device murders the user or hurts society as a whole. To say nothing of how most of the more esoteric tinker projects are based on largely hypothetical technologies, and thus nobody really has full right to say whether it would work as described or not. You're also describing it in an overly binary fashion - what I had in mind was a more subtle system, with the chance of designs proving entirely unworkable being a relatively small one. Other side effects could be, for instance, your average radiation gun inadvertently shooting you with 0.087 Sv worth of radiation every time you use it when holding it normally, or its firing making certain types of space magic more volatile, or something in that vein. Fun things, you know, with a slight possibility for serendipity in the process.

Finally, it's already been said that the laws of physics in ER are perhaps insufficient to describe the full nature of reality, what with magic, ghosts, alternate dimensions and other creepy stuff being a thing and all. Thus what you describe as real world principles may not necessarily apply even if you explain them fully and even if they've been demonstrated to work in the real world. Or at least that's one way it could be argued. The real issue, I feel, is that a player claims absolute knowledge and goes unchallenged because of their technobabble being incomprehensible rather than the idea being sensible, and I find that to be an inadequate breach of the player-GM contract.

Then you wouldn't be able to do biotech very well in it anyways and the whole conversation is pointless.

Exactly! A valuable observation, and a good reason why one can very well just not lift the biotech tinker ban in the first place, since it would seem logical that tinker just can't adequately simulate the behavior of a genemod in the first place by its relatively simplified nature.

I released a first version of the potion gen using a bit of time I had this evening.

I might be able to give everyone a potion...thats a thing I could do...

And this sounds good, as a side note.

[Radio Controlled]

I released a first version of the potion gen using a bit of time I had this evening.
I might be able to give everyone a potion...thats a thing I could do...

Pro on principle, against it personally, mostly because i severely doubt that one of those potions would give any positive effect that outweighs its potential bad effects. Wouldn't be a problem if this was still a fresh character, but as it stands there's not a whole lot for me to gain I suspect, compared to what I might get (things that mutate my body, for good or bad, are worthless either way, only positive mind upgrades really help).

And, if you hide the rolls, that means that players are able to, without knowing, inflict horrific, possibly permanently fatal damage upon themselves and others by trying to be creative.

In what way could this possibly be a bad thing for the game?

Because people would become scared of using it perhaps?

Yes, cause messing with your genes and biochemistry is certainly not a risky thing at all.

On the other hand, ER is a world where one can decapitate himself and be guaranteed survival from hooking up his brain to a computer and robobody. Imagine doing nanosurgery to correctly reconnect all those individual nerve endings! What horror. And never are there complications or anything, nobody that is unable to adapt to his new state of being.


I'd personally say that, if people really want that element of uncertainty with genemods, then make it so side effects and such are inherent to the procedure of getting one, not tied to the particular genemod. For example, anytime you get one there's a small chance of bad shit happening, going from the mod not taking hold, body violently rejecting it with some stat loss, or random hilarious mutation of sorts (how that would realistically work is a mystery to me as well). that means people can still design what they want, having to balance it out and adequately explain it, without the whole thing becoming so unreliable it becomes unfeasible.

Biotech is hard and unpredictable for really complex systems, sure, but in ER tech is so advanced that I do think we should be capable to reliably design things and achieve a desired outcome (after all, synthetic biology is a thing in real life already, and ER is vastly ahead of RL).

Tinker is anything but a perfect reality simulator. It does not simulate matter interaction on a molecular level, it uses pre-defined interaction principles to show you what will happen. I doubt it can even be used to develop new chemical substances.

I used it to develop the goop chemical mixtures and their interactions and behavior in different circumstances, your prediction has been falsified. Besides, if tinker can simulate big things such as Hexbarax, I could see it simulate a single organism to a workable degree (as in, well enough to tinker) if it can allocate enough computing power.

The real issue, I feel, is that a player claims absolute knowledge and goes unchallenged because of their technobabble being incomprehensible rather than the idea being sensible, and I find that to be an inadequate breach of the player-GM contract.

Even if that became too big a problem, there is the failsafe of gameplay balance, which will always overrule no matter how good you can outmaneuver, technobabble, or turn PW's words against him over the course of weeks. Just ask Syv.

[Harry Baldman]

I used it to develop the goop chemical mixtures and their interactions and behavior in different circumstances, your prediction has been falsified. Besides, if tinker can simulate big things such as Hexbarax, I could see it simulate a single organism to a workable degree (as in, well enough to tinker) if it can allocate enough computing power.

Not sure if it simulates the entirety of Hexbarax, though. Maybe it's just a relatively narrow instance that gets simulated, with basic future videogame levels of NPC simulation within that. Should probably check that if anyone can be bothered. So that alone may not really prove that it's advanced enough.

The goop, I'd assume, is some sort of relatively simple organic molecule that polymerizes in certain conditions. While it does certainly prove that organic chemistry is not beyond tinker, biochemistry may still be a bit more of a challenge for very complex models like a full human being. Probably no resource-based reason you couldn't experiment with recombinant viruses, individual tissues and stuff like that on it with this in mind, though. Interesting!

I also don't believe that the upper boundaries of VR simulation have been properly pushed by anyone yet, so perhaps VR has much more complexity in it than may appear thus far.

Even if that became too big a problem, there is the failsafe of gameplay balance, which will always overrule no matter how good you can outmaneuver, technobabble, or turn PW's words against him over the course of weeks. Just ask Syv.

It's not so much a gameplay balance issue, and I do admit I may have confused the issue a little there, considering that I really like the words 'gameplay balance' without respect to their meaning to the point that one could consider them buzzwords when I mention them. It's more a matter of principle and GM involvement. I dislike the way a player, who in this case would be Pyro or anybody with reasonably comprehensive biology knowledge should biotech tinkering be allowed, can basically dictate facts to the GM not because I dislike the player himself or believe that he'd abuse this ability in order to break the game (not that this would even be a problem, like you said, since there's other players out to nerf any game-breaking new techniques and implements, for one, and piecewise can always backpedal on any less than wisely made claims), but because the idea itself is appalling to me, since the GM embodies the universe, and this feels like players stepping out of bounds. Does this make sense?

[syvarris]

Let me try a different angle with this- Harry, you agreed that current genemods are hilariously overpriced, and should be cheaper, right?

Well, you're currently arguing basically the opposite of that.  While I'm sure that there'd be some people that would try to get 'prototype' genemods for their own use, most of the genemods would probably come from Hephaestus and be added to the armory, like the MCP series, Spectr rifles, and hopefully my heavy robobody design.

Now, most of the things that can be done with biotech can be done with engineering, with the minor exception of growing new things in your body.  In your system, biotech has the disadvantage that you would need to go through a lot of prototyping and experimentation before your genemod enters the armory, which isn't something that happens with engineering.

Say I want to make a genemod which allows the user to sprout wolverine claws.  I could use biotech to design bone claws which can regrow, and then spend a RL month troubleshooting... or I could spend six days just designing a mechanical equivalent, which loses the regeneration, but gains speed of implantation, the ability to work on robobodies, and the ability to buy new claws (Mythril claws, anyone?).  Why would I use biotech?  It takes far too long, for dubious benefit.

In your system, nobody is ever going to design any genemods, because it's annoying.  The sadists won't, because it's too involved, and doesn't hurt enough.  The smart people won't, because it takes too long, and isn't much better than the easy alternative anyway.




As far as VR not simulating genetics to a sufficient level... is the game really more fun for everyone if nobody is allowed to make genemods unless they're on Hephaestus?  It wouldn't affect me personally, but it seems unfair.

[Harry Baldman]

Naturally, the genemodding rolling thing works better if the same principle is applied to other forms of engineering as well. And even then it doesn't mitigate the fact that genemodding is rather plainly inferior to mechanical engineering for all combat applications in the first place (since you're completely right and it is entirely silly to make bone claws if metal ones are possible). It can only distinguish itself from its competitors in the following ways:

• It is slightly cheaper.
• It has a much more friendly look to it, almost as if it were saying 'don't panic!' to onlookers.
• With less stringent restrictions in place, you could use it to modify vestigial organic brains, which could be its primary distinguishing feature were it not almost entirely forbidden (exception - producing bluesmoke active ingredients in the brain, and probably others if further design is allowed).

Only reason one would want to make genemods is to upgrade mental capabilities, to create covert military technologies (even if a superior solution would be to just give people terminator-style robobodies), to make bioweapons (which seems strategically inadvisable and hilariously impractical in most cases I can think of, and sharkmist/abyssal sand derivatives could be superior anyway) or just mess around for fun (and that'll probably boil down to just telling piecewise what you want functionally-speaking, which I don't find very fun or meta-fun (that is to say, bringing fun through a feeling of realism) without possibility for unforeseen consequences, even if they're confined to Tinker). Human genemods are never going to be a cornerstone of technology or even vaguely efficient except for cognitive applications (and maybe, just maybe making spider silk) and without a massive price drop, and thus all other improvements should focus on making them fun to play around with - randomness can bring some fun (if piecewise gets imaginative with it, anyway - that's the whole point of the rolling to begin with), and also provides meta-fun in the form of realism. And if Tinker can indeed simulate an organism in full, well, then the whole danger element is decreased if you want to play it that way.

In short, genemodding is not a powergaming solution by any means. It's a thing to be used for personal amusement and stylistic purposes (except brain enhancements). As such, the design process ought to be geared for hilarity rather than functionality, in my opinion. And a rather considerable hilarity factor should apply to brain enhancements for good measure. And I'd also say you're wrong about certain sadists - it's involvement that makes sadism properly fun rather than idly amusing.

[Radio Controlled]

Not sure if it simulates the entirety of Hexbarax, though. Maybe it's just a relatively narrow instance that gets simulated, with basic future videogame levels of NPC simulation within that. Should probably check that if anyone can be bothered. So that alone may not really prove that it's advanced enough.

I have read all of the previous Hexbarax sims, and from the descriptions and language PW used, it seemed pretty darn complex. You can check back for yourself and see what you find (not gonna go quote-hunting right now, sorry).

Does this make sense?

I see your point. Thing is, it already happens regularly, for better or worse. Secondly, what are the alternatives? PW having to suddenly gain a vast knowledge on all sorts of different topics? Not allowing a lot of things (limits options and fun, I suspect) if it's above his level of knowledge in that field? Or employing potentially weird or unwieldy mechanics to allow it without putting too much strain on the gm? I'd personally argue for the 'community-controlled' system we kinda have now (and is officialized with the Council).



Also, I'd like to make note that most biotech things would probably be for blackops peeps mostly if they alter the body (or people who really like being fleshy), because robotics does indeed often offer a better/cheaper alternative (though not necessarily always). I think we can distinguish at least 2 categories for gene/body mods: can you use them effectively while inside a suit (required for a lot of missions. Wolverine claws, even if retractable, would rupture the suit when used, so useless in a lot of situations) or not, and do they visibly alter your appearance or not (if not, usable for blackops)?

I think there is certainly a market for non-appearance altering 'biotech tools' (eg being able to shoot little bone darts filled with a strong anesthetic) or indeed things that up the mental faculties. Because I  suspect a terminator-style arrangement might be too easy to detect ("are those metal insides you have, or is my metal detector beeping cause it's happy to see you?") for black-ops people.

bioweapons (which seems strategically inadvisable and hilariously impractical in most cases I can think of

Then I think we might be lacking sufficient imagination. Bio-engineering could be useful in other ways than direct 'killing the enemy' ways. And if you need ways of... removing large amounts of populace while leaving infrastructure intact, (bio)chemical weapons are very cost-effective (I have an idea vaguely worked out in a word document somewhere for a disguisable viral attack vector with programmable delay).

[Nikitian]

Now, on the topic of 'potions for everyone' option - I think that could be acceptable with three restrictions:

• the potions being strictly non-malicious (it's a celebratory event, after all, and previous ERmas established the tradition);
• the potions being non-genealtering - there are many other ways to produce effects, ranging from 'space magic' to 'natural' effects like in case of Bluesmokes;
• the potions able to affect the brain-only people too (intaken with nutrient slurry or something) - because it wouldn't be fair otherwise.

With that, effects can vary from harmless to situationally beneficial to very cool (just like the last time), they can be either temporary, semi-permanent or permanent (just like the last time) and so on. Really, with that, I would be looking forward to cool new ERmas potions!

[PyroDesu]

It's not so much a gameplay balance issue, and I do admit I may have confused the issue a little there, considering that I really like the words 'gameplay balance' without respect to their meaning to the point that one could consider them buzzwords when I mention them. It's more a matter of principle and GM involvement. I dislike the way a player, who in this case would be Pyro or anybody with reasonably comprehensive biology knowledge should biotech tinkering be allowed, can basically dictate facts to the GM not because I dislike the player himself or believe that he'd abuse this ability in order to break the game (not that this would even be a problem, like you said, since there's other players out to nerf any game-breaking new techniques and implements, for one, and piecewise can always backpedal on any less than wisely made claims), but because the idea itself is appalling to me, since the GM embodies the universe, and this feels like players stepping out of bounds. Does this make sense?

So, because PW is not the entirety of human knowledge coalesced into one being, those of us with specialties should be punished (with a random chance of unwanted 'side-effects' and a 1/6 chance of complete failure) for trying to make something based on reality? In a game where the laws of reality are implicitly (and perhaps explicitly somewhere, but I'm not going to go hunting for quotes that I'm not sure even exist) followed to as great a point as possible (recall PW asking me the potential effects of someone being shot while wearing my MCP suit?), except where explicitly broken.

(And by the way, I very much dislike what I and some others do while tinkering being called technobabble. That term has serious negative connotations, at least to me - those of being fraudulent or trying (badly) to cover up plotholes and instill suspension of disbelief.

Also, almost everything I say can be traced to somewhere on the internet (usually Wikipedia) with a casual search. And the application of a bit of creative logic, in most instances.)

We can make stuff dangerous without messing with player ability to contribute.