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[AoshimaMichio]

Somehow Jim is quite notable person, being first to do many things. First to die, first to be complete cyborg, first to purhace synthflesh body, first to intentionally have multiple arms. You act often and you act well. At least in my head Jim is quite likeable fellow. I would grant him few medals right away. In many ways you have successfully made him rather impressive/real person.

+what others said while I was slowly writing out my mind.

[Parisbre56]

Unrelated, Does anyone know a good way to go about proving Trig Identities? Something like:
(sec-tan)²+1
_____________ = 2 tan.
csc (sec-tan)

I understand all the concepts behind it but I have yet to find a good solid methodical way of solving it that doesn't involve just making shitty guesses and playing around with things till something works. And while we're at it:

Tan(X)=2sin(X)

This produces, through normal means, two answers. One of them is superfluous, the other works. However, there's a third one that doesn't show up anywhere along the way, one you just kind of have to infer by looking at the problem. And I am baffled about how to get there through normal methods.


I'm bad at math.

Having recently (read: yesterday) written an exam that consisted entirely out of math proofs, my opinion is that there is no other way, at least none that I can see. You either learn all the proofs by heart (not the entire proof, just the important parts, something like what the first step should be. Writing it down a couple of times may help) or mess around trying all the tricks you know until something works.

Sometimes it might help to start from what they're asking you to prove and work backwards a bit. Sometimes it might help looking for similarities between this proof and some other.

Beyond that, I don't know. Never liked math (and especially trigonometry) very much. Maybe someone else knows better.

[Radio Controlled]

Spoiler: ranks (click to show/hide)

You could also take a note from actual militaries and give people two ranks during training, where you can then find out if people are capable of tying their own shoes.  Then everyone can start off at, say, subcommander, and it would be just fine.

We don't have any real required training though, we throw even the most green rookies feet first into the fray. Would help tremendously for weeding out the unstable elements, but probably not a good idea, still just a game after all.

On the overall structure: I'd avoid having a rank of 'squad leader'. It's more of a position on a mission, and mixing up the two can result in confusion, so it's better to avoid it.

Why no squad leaders? In practice it's often the same people being appointed squad leader anyways, and on other (less structured) missions it's often the same people being regarded as the natural leader people will listen to. This would make that official, and avoid people that have no real leading skill or ambitions but who've survived for some time to have leadership thrusted upon them.

Also, I don't quite understand it. Specialist/Subcommander people - are we talking of Simus here (let's take her as a benchmark)? Or Adepts in Piecewise's structure? I'm confused again, I'm afraid.

Simus as well, yes. Mostly people that aren't generals, but with more responsibilities than a squad leader. So if, say, Milno appoints an official second-in-command, that person would be at the 'subcommander' level.

Then it means that Piecewise's scheme was right, after all, with three lower non-commanding ranks. The first two exactly could be 'novice' and 'proven novice' as you want, and the third would be that 'more skilled, not commanding'.
Hmmm. Overall, somewhat amended Piecewise's systems seems the best answer to most of peoples wishes and needs. I'll try and post my take on the system later today.

My idea was for 2 non-commanding levels, but three could work I guess (with the third being the highest sans leadership responsibilities). Could be handy for vets who are clearly better than the regular 'proven trooper' but who don't want/aren't suited for commanding. They wouldn't have position authority, only whatever personal authority people give them (right now, outside of generals, personal authority is what we go by).

For roles, I'd really keep that fully apart from ranks. If sniper A is much better and experienced than sniper B, but they have the same rank, then A won't have official authority, but B might still listen to him due to A's personal authority and greater knowledge.


Also, if we do this, then I'd say everybody (apart from generals and sub-commanders) start at the second rank (proven). Mostly so that everyone has an equal chance. People who are competent will distinguish themselves soon enough.

Spoiler: medals (click to show/hide)

One thing for medals: I wouldn't couple it to tokens nor perks, would complicate things I think. If people really want them be more than purely bragging rights (which is what I would go for, bragging rights are kinda awesome), perhaps say that every medal is 'worth' a token, but only ever for buying nyarstifacts. So you can exchange 3 medals for a small nyartifact (you still keep the medal, but it loses its value). Just a thought, but it could lead to more exotic alien tools, and the chaos that entails. I agree with medals being handed out on a case by case basis, with perhaps a vague baseline for each ('e.g. purple hearts are for those seriously injured in the line of duty').

I can't say for the whole medals system, but I think that somewhere around the very top of it could be the Order of Avatar or something, coming with personal Avatar of War. That way, it seems, would be a quite logical and fluff-consistent approach to acquiring one, either instead of or in addition to amassing enough tokens. Have it require multiple earlier awards, exemplary career and then it would really be synonymous to 'being a great warrior'.

I'd say no to awarding very high-end gear for free (even though Feyri did get a free synthflesh body from the gm recently). Think it'd throw off game balance too much.

PW, if we have medals, will you (=Steve) look into distributing them, or is that something Steve's generals should take care of?

And with the ranks? Because I have no problem helping with that (and since I often have to do the team organizing, it might even be a bit handier).

Are there rules for teaching other characters skills?

In terms of raising stats, no. But other people can give you valuable advice on what to do or how to use your equipment.

As one of said wiki gnomes, I don't think a [WIKI] tag or anything is necessary, though it would certainly help; especially if it had hovertext, in the case of used ammo + grenades, like you said. I really hate having to add "Partially used" or "Fired X number of times" notes to the wiki; exact figures are just so much better.

Yeah, it'd help for wiki upkeeping if every time pw says something like "You shoot him a few times." he would add what exactly ("You shoot him a few times. ((3 shots fired))") happened in terms of equipment gain or loss.

It's not entirely out of the question with gene splicing, cloning, synth-flesh, the wonders of DNA  and still being a human brain-in-a-bucket. Male brain DNA, female brain DNA, gene splice them together after reticulating splines and a random d6 roll. Voila! A little human thingy (maybe). It might not even need the male/female consideration. Although, there may be errors associated with all this.

Oh no, I could see somatic cells being converted back into stem cells in order to re-specialize them into germ line cells. In fact, I've seen far more implausible things in terms of biotech in this game (3 hour dead brain, and yet still revivable? Psssh yeah right. ).

I'm sure Cecil's babies would be genetic beauties. With six arms and organic chestplates.

I highly doubt the Doc would change your germ line cells as well, instead of just altering the tissue needed and be done with it. So your children should be normal humans.

There are procedures for stuffing your brain back into a meat shell, it's just entirely impractical and expensive, because the price scales with your stats,

You sure about that price scaling? Don't remember it costing more as your stats increase.

Or, now that I'm back on the Sword you can just pay me to make you a body!
Oh wait never mind, that caused the whole STAN thing. Yeah disregard that.

It's still plausible, but Xan will have to learn how to use his powers first. Meaning you will have to go about using them smarter than before.

RadioControlled literally will not let me quit ER because I play Jim.

Excuse me? That's not true. I just said that I'd find it a shame if Jim stopped existing in the game (outside of an actual death) because he has such an important role. Feyri or Faith disappearing I'd also find sad and a loss for the game, but they don't have a central role in the plot. But Milno-Miya-Jim are supposed to from a trinity of Steve's organization. And since you (unlike me and Cael) don't seem to ever actually wield your power, Jim has become the rp face of that. Lass barking orders, more talking to newbies to reassure them, for example.

What the hell is the big deal with Jim? Why does it feel like people are fixated on him?

Dude, some people have trouble making any sort of name for themselves or distinguishing their characters. If anything, be happy. Besides, Miya also comes up sometimes when people need an example for whatever, and I don't mind.

Unrelated, Does anyone know a good way to go about proving Trig Identities? Something like:
(sec-tan)2+1
__________ = 2 tan.
csc (sec-tan)
I understand all the concepts behind it but I have yet to find a good solid methodical way of solving it that doesn't involve just making shitty guesses and playing around with things till something works. And while we're at it:
Tan(X)=2sin(X)
This produces, through normal means, two answers. One of them is superfluous, the other works. However, there's a third one that doesn't show up anywhere along the way, one you just kind of have to infer by looking at the problem. And I am baffled about how to get there through normal methods.
I'm bad at math.

It has been a very long time ago since I last did these kind of equations. And as far as I remember, it's a lot of random trying. However, I do remember some tricks:
1) reverse engineering: instead of working purely left-to-right, perhaps try right to left, or trying to work both terms 'toward each other'.
2) adding '*1' to whatever part f the equation and then replacing it with something equivalent (e.g. sin(X)/sin(X) ) can sometimes help if you need to convert one thing into another.

[SeriousConcentrate]

Allow me to rebut.

That's not true. I just said that I'd find it a shame if Jim stopped existing in the game (outside of an actual death) because he has such an important role.

Let me rephrase that then: I can't quit because Radio wants Jim to continue to exist instead of just disappearing if I do. I've basically been told that if I leave Jim will become an NPC and since I'm OCD about nobody other than me playing my characters, I'm stuck for it.

Feyri or Faith disappearing I'd also find sad and a loss for the game, but they don't have a central role in the plot. But Milno-Miya-Jim are supposed to from a trinity of Steve's organization. And since you (unlike me and Cael) don't seem to ever actually wield your power, Jim has become the rp face of that. Lass barking orders, more talking to newbies to reassure them, for example.

I don't see him as having an important role in ARM, though. Miyamoto manages main operations, Milno does secret operations, Jim... was just made a general because he was around from the start, I guess, because I really don't know what he brings to the table. And don't say he's the face of it, because he surely ain't with his -1 to speech and charisma. As for the last part, I don't throw weight around or bark orders because I don't want to be a leader; I know I'm no good at it. That's why I wanted no part of Mission 18. I knew I'd be stuck as the leader because Jim's a General for whatever reason.

As for the other quote, it's not about making a name or distinguishing myself. I'm paranoid, OK? It kinda unnerves me when it seems like people are watching me all the time. ._.'

[Devastator]

[spoiler=ranks]

You could also take a note from actual militaries and give people two ranks during training, where you can then find out if people are capable of tying their own shoes.  Then everyone can start off at, say, subcommander, and it would be just fine.

We don't have any real required training though, we throw even the most green rookies feet first into the fray. Would help tremendously for weeding out the unstable elements, but probably not a good idea, still just a game after all.

The point was that having them in the first place is redundant, because it's either pointless, as they do nothing and mean nothing, or if there is someone in charge of these newbies, the ranks would then exist to make sure the new people can do their own turns.

Since submitting a turn is, well, typing text and hitting post, I fail to see the point of having officers to make sure people can do that.  This is a forum, and they've already demonstrated that level of competence in just being here.  If they want to, well, bugger up, let them, because the bugger ups are where PW gets to shine.

And if someone has personal authority, they don't need any rank to use it.  That's what personal authority means, after all.  What you're trying to establish is positional authority, that is, making people follow your orders, because of x, which has been bestowed upon you.  And if a player is there simply to follow your orders, why would he play at all?

What a player does is write orders, and RP.  Don't take one of those away.  And if you say "Oh, but they don't have to", then you would establish the condition of players not having to follow orders better by not having ranks in the first place.

[Parisbre56]

What you are saying makes no sense. You've probably misunderstood something. Think of ranks not as the capacity for giving orders but the responsibility for those of lower ranks. If you have a rank, then you have the capacity to RP that man who feels responsible. Or not, if you don't want to. The ranks are IC, not OOC.

[Devastator]

Oh, and as for Jim, I like him because I think he may be the most interesting character around.  You've done RP with him, RP that you've backed with actual in-game actions, you spend your time interacting with characters and the environment, and he has been through a lot of nasty situations.  You also developed your own fighting style, and have proven yourself quite capable of acting IC.  There's lots of people who talk, but you're someone who actually does the interesting stuff.  There are a few others like you, but you've got an interesting character.  Just strange enough to be distinctive, but normal enough to be empathised with.

As to why you're a general, I'd guess it's because you're the only person who wouldn't need a position to be in charge.

[Devastator]

What you are saying makes no sense. You've probably misunderstood something. Think of ranks not as the capacity for giving orders but the responsibility for those of lower ranks.

If that was true, then why is Steve on top?

[Parisbre56]

I do not understand your question. Why wouldn't he?

[Devastator]

Because arming prisoners with dirt-cheap WMDs isn't very responsable.

Besides, which, most dangers are self-inflicted, or friendly fire, and in order to protect someone from themselves, you'd have to give orders for them.  There's also situations where if you rescue a couple of players, they aren't rescuing themselves, but are being rescued by some other player more awesome than them.  The rescuer doesn't need rank in order to be responsable for someone, if they want to do so, they can do it without such a thing.  Having ranks like that is saying to rookies that you don't need to worry when important things start happening, because there are important people to handle it.

[Parisbre56]

Oh, I meant responsible for them getting results, like a manager. Not for their well being. I think that Steve gets pretty good results. Despite some hiccups (which are to be expected with the unpredictable missions we're going to) we almost always get the job done. Plus, there's nobody else who can do Steve's jobs.

[Radio Controlled]

I don't see him as having an important role in ARM, though. Miyamoto manages main operations, Milno does secret operations, Jim... was just made a general because he was around from the start, I guess, because I really don't know what he brings to the table. And don't say he's the face of it, because he surely ain't with his -1 to speech and charisma. As for the last part, I don't throw weight around or bark orders because I don't want to be a leader; I know I'm no good at it. That's why I wanted no part of Mission 18. I knew I'd be stuck as the leader because Jim's a General for whatever reason.

I think I might have a solution for that, sc. It might take a little bit of work from you, but it should solve the problems you've outlined here. Wanna here what I have in mind?

As for the other quote, it's not about making a name or distinguishing myself. I'm paranoid, OK? It kinda unnerves me when it seems like people are watching me all the time. ._.'

Because arming prisoners with dirt-cheap WMDs isn't very responsable.

The problem of this still being a game, and not wanting to choke out the silly fun and shenanigans too much?

[piecewise]

Spoiler: ranks (click to show/hide)

You could also take a note from actual militaries and give people two ranks during training, where you can then find out if people are capable of tying their own shoes.  Then everyone can start off at, say, subcommander, and it would be just fine.

We don't have any real required training though, we throw even the most green rookies feet first into the fray. Would help tremendously for weeding out the unstable elements, but probably not a good idea, still just a game after all.

On the overall structure: I'd avoid having a rank of 'squad leader'. It's more of a position on a mission, and mixing up the two can result in confusion, so it's better to avoid it.

Why no squad leaders? In practice it's often the same people being appointed squad leader anyways, and on other (less structured) missions it's often the same people being regarded as the natural leader people will listen to. This would make that official, and avoid people that have no real leading skill or ambitions but who've survived for some time to have leadership thrusted upon them.

Also, I don't quite understand it. Specialist/Subcommander people - are we talking of Simus here (let's take her as a benchmark)? Or Adepts in Piecewise's structure? I'm confused again, I'm afraid.

Simus as well, yes. Mostly people that aren't generals, but with more responsibilities than a squad leader. So if, say, Milno appoints an official second-in-command, that person would be at the 'subcommander' level.

Then it means that Piecewise's scheme was right, after all, with three lower non-commanding ranks. The first two exactly could be 'novice' and 'proven novice' as you want, and the third would be that 'more skilled, not commanding'.
Hmmm. Overall, somewhat amended Piecewise's systems seems the best answer to most of peoples wishes and needs. I'll try and post my take on the system later today.

My idea was for 2 non-commanding levels, but three could work I guess (with the third being the highest sans leadership responsibilities). Could be handy for vets who are clearly better than the regular 'proven trooper' but who don't want/aren't suited for commanding. They wouldn't have position authority, only whatever personal authority people give them (right now, outside of generals, personal authority is what we go by).

For roles, I'd really keep that fully apart from ranks. If sniper A is much better and experienced than sniper B, but they have the same rank, then A won't have official authority, but B might still listen to him due to A's personal authority and greater knowledge.


Also, if we do this, then I'd say everybody (apart from generals and sub-commanders) start at the second rank (proven). Mostly so that everyone has an equal chance. People who are competent will distinguish themselves soon enough.

Spoiler: medals (click to show/hide)

One thing for medals: I wouldn't couple it to tokens nor perks, would complicate things I think. If people really want them be more than purely bragging rights (which is what I would go for, bragging rights are kinda awesome), perhaps say that every medal is 'worth' a token, but only ever for buying nyarstifacts. So you can exchange 3 medals for a small nyartifact (you still keep the medal, but it loses its value). Just a thought, but it could lead to more exotic alien tools, and the chaos that entails. I agree with medals being handed out on a case by case basis, with perhaps a vague baseline for each ('e.g. purple hearts are for those seriously injured in the line of duty').

I can't say for the whole medals system, but I think that somewhere around the very top of it could be the Order of Avatar or something, coming with personal Avatar of War. That way, it seems, would be a quite logical and fluff-consistent approach to acquiring one, either instead of or in addition to amassing enough tokens. Have it require multiple earlier awards, exemplary career and then it would really be synonymous to 'being a great warrior'.

I'd say no to awarding very high-end gear for free (even though Feyri did get a free synthflesh body from the gm recently). Think it'd throw off game balance too much.

PW, if we have medals, will you (=Steve) look into distributing them, or is that something Steve's generals should take care of?

And with the ranks? Because I have no problem helping with that (and since I often have to do the team organizing, it might even be a bit handier).

Are there rules for teaching other characters skills?

In terms of raising stats, no. But other people can give you valuable advice on what to do or how to use your equipment.

As one of said wiki gnomes, I don't think a [WIKI] tag or anything is necessary, though it would certainly help; especially if it had hovertext, in the case of used ammo + grenades, like you said. I really hate having to add "Partially used" or "Fired X number of times" notes to the wiki; exact figures are just so much better.

Yeah, it'd help for wiki upkeeping if every time pw says something like "You shoot him a few times." he would add what exactly ("You shoot him a few times. ((3 shots fired))") happened in terms of equipment gain or loss.

It's not entirely out of the question with gene splicing, cloning, synth-flesh, the wonders of DNA  and still being a human brain-in-a-bucket. Male brain DNA, female brain DNA, gene splice them together after reticulating splines and a random d6 roll. Voila! A little human thingy (maybe). It might not even need the male/female consideration. Although, there may be errors associated with all this.

Oh no, I could see somatic cells being converted back into stem cells in order to re-specialize them into germ line cells. In fact, I've seen far more implausible things in terms of biotech in this game (3 hour dead brain, and yet still revivable? Psssh yeah right. ).

I'm sure Cecil's babies would be genetic beauties. With six arms and organic chestplates.

I highly doubt the Doc would change your germ line cells as well, instead of just altering the tissue needed and be done with it. So your children should be normal humans.

There are procedures for stuffing your brain back into a meat shell, it's just entirely impractical and expensive, because the price scales with your stats,

You sure about that price scaling? Don't remember it costing more as your stats increase.

Or, now that I'm back on the Sword you can just pay me to make you a body!
Oh wait never mind, that caused the whole STAN thing. Yeah disregard that.

It's still plausible, but Xan will have to learn how to use his powers first. Meaning you will have to go about using them smarter than before.

RadioControlled literally will not let me quit ER because I play Jim.

Excuse me? That's not true. I just said that I'd find it a shame if Jim stopped existing in the game (outside of an actual death) because he has such an important role. Feyri or Faith disappearing I'd also find sad and a loss for the game, but they don't have a central role in the plot. But Milno-Miya-Jim are supposed to from a trinity of Steve's organization. And since you (unlike me and Cael) don't seem to ever actually wield your power, Jim has become the rp face of that. Lass barking orders, more talking to newbies to reassure them, for example.

What the hell is the big deal with Jim? Why does it feel like people are fixated on him?

Dude, some people have trouble making any sort of name for themselves or distinguishing their characters. If anything, be happy. Besides, Miya also comes up sometimes when people need an example for whatever, and I don't mind.

Unrelated, Does anyone know a good way to go about proving Trig Identities? Something like:
(sec-tan)2+1
__________ = 2 tan.
csc (sec-tan)
I understand all the concepts behind it but I have yet to find a good solid methodical way of solving it that doesn't involve just making shitty guesses and playing around with things till something works. And while we're at it:
Tan(X)=2sin(X)
This produces, through normal means, two answers. One of them is superfluous, the other works. However, there's a third one that doesn't show up anywhere along the way, one you just kind of have to infer by looking at the problem. And I am baffled about how to get there through normal methods.
I'm bad at math.

It has been a very long time ago since I last did these kind of equations. And as far as I remember, it's a lot of random trying. However, I do remember some tricks:
1) reverse engineering: instead of working purely left-to-right, perhaps try right to left, or trying to work both terms 'toward each other'.
2) adding '*1' to whatever part f the equation and then replacing it with something equivalent (e.g. sin(X)/sin(X) ) can sometimes help if you need to convert one thing into another.

Up to you, really. If you want me to do it, I'll do it. If you want to do it, you can do it. If you want both of us to do it, then we'll do that.

Same deal with ranks.

And yeah, thats kinda what I was afraid of. My problem unusually isn't in solving it, it's in doing it quickly enough. All my tests have time limits that leave me about 3 minutes per problem and these damn proofs are not something which I can easily wrap my mind around and see the method of transforming easily. Then again, all this is getting so damn abstract I'm having a hard time relating it to anything.

ho hum. 

[Devastator]

The problem of this still being a game, and not wanting to choke out the silly fun and shenanigans too much?

The best way to ensure silly fun and shenanigans is to institute multiple layers of management!

[Harry Baldman]

The best way to ensure silly fun and shenanigans is to institute multiple layers of management!

Especially if each layer has contradicting orders and duties given to it!