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Author Topic: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC and NEW PLAYER INFO  (Read 2522709 times)

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #615 on: February 07, 2014, 03:43:51 pm »

You have to account for atmospheric diffusion as well GWG


Good thing Hephaestus has a moon then, right?  It's pretty small so I'm making the assumption it has no atmosphere.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #616 on: February 07, 2014, 03:45:04 pm »

You have to account for atmospheric diffusion as well GWG
True. Still, even if the range was cut to a tenth, it would be more than sufficient. Again, I don't see any significant issues from range of laser batteries; sure, the ships can try sniping, but at 200,000 or 20,000 km they'll leave a good bit of room open for counter-attacks if they use kinetic weapons (and will have lower ranges if they try lasers).

You have to account for atmospheric diffusion as well GWG
Good thing Hephaestus has a moon then, right?  It's pretty small so I'm making the assumption it has no atmosphere.
It has native life, and people can walk around without space suits or dying.
Also, Titan feels snubbed.
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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #617 on: February 07, 2014, 03:47:49 pm »

If they stay out of range and snipe, I don't see how you could counter-attack, since they would have an insurmountable advantage in ship-to-ship combat.
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Lenglon

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #618 on: February 07, 2014, 03:48:46 pm »

I'm waiting for the part where I care Taricus. Why does the laser being pulsed magically remove the issue of needing to hit the same target constantly with noticeable lag in both weapon travel time and being able to see your target, which is moving at extreme speeds itself, and delays even in seeing the results of your shooting or whatever maneuvers the target makes to avoid your fire?

My point in all this has been that lasers aren't perfectly accurate, and that we can't assume perfect accuracy on either point defense lasers or similar point defense style attack weapons.
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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #619 on: February 07, 2014, 03:51:35 pm »

Well, you've never made that point initially. And I've already said that targeting computers are necessary. And at the rangers that any small craft will be in to deliver any payload, those lasers will be perfectly accurate.

Also, if you don't care about the argument at all, please don't try continuing one, thank you.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #620 on: February 07, 2014, 03:51:52 pm »

If they stay out of range and snipe, I don't see how you could counter-attack, since they would have an insurmountable advantage in ship-to-ship combat.
They also wouldn't do anything. And I'm willing to bet that the ships carry fewer supplies than the freaking planet.
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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #621 on: February 07, 2014, 03:54:48 pm »

They hit the power plants though, that would open every window for an assaults. And while they would have less supplies, they're able to be resupplied from outside whereas you cannot.
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Lenglon

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #622 on: February 07, 2014, 03:56:36 pm »

Well, you've never made that point initially. And I've already said that targeting computers are necessary. And at the rangers that any small craft will be in to deliver any payload, those lasers will be perfectly accurate.

Also, if you don't care about the argument at all, please don't try continuing one, thank you.
Please read your own posts:
That depends on the laser. If it's pulsed operation, it wouldn't need to stay on target since it delivers all it's energy in one, large blast. Sorta like the sectopod main cannon or a lasgun.
That is what I've been talking about, where have you been?
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #623 on: February 07, 2014, 03:58:05 pm »

PD weapons exist in any case, be it against missiles or asteroids. Take that as fact.
This means that missiles both exist, and are used on the field.
This means there are tactics developed to counteract the enemy point defense.
This means fighters are possible during the same phase of engagement where missiles are possible.
Possible, yes. Effective, efficient, worth making? You haven't shown that.

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Weapons precise enough to destroy fighters can destroy or damage these weapons with ease, as they are attached to much slower-moving capital ships.
Whereas fighters are going to have severe trouble dodging any kind of weapon unless they're at extreme distances, so they're also going to be easy to hit.
The intent is to say that the weapons themselves are easier to hit than the fighters. That the fighters can be hit with relative ease by laser weapons I'll take for granted here.

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The opening phase of the fight therefore becomes an exchange of salvoes that targets the individual weapons of the enemy - it's the best way to render the enemy helpless. This is especially true if ships are valuable enough to refrain from destroying them with abandon.
Wouldn't your logic make the ship with more PD weapons and PDstroyers the one with the advantage?
The general notion of combat, if ships are merely captured instead of destroyed, would lean towards that, yes.

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Single large weapons become weakpoints. They become secondary weapons meant to be used when it's necessary to destroy the enemy, after its precise defensive weaponry is removed.
Assuming, of course, that the exposed part of the weapon is A. easy to damage and B. important to the function of the weapon.
A reasonable enough assumption, given that we're talking about large weapons here. A laser powerful enough to count as anti-ship, and focused to a distance of greater than a light-second, may well have a focusing lens measured in meters. At distances of over a light-second, any opening in armor more than a foot wide, be it for lasers or projectile weapons, aimed anywhere in the general direction of an enemy ship, may as well be a tunnel straight through it as far as weapon reach in concerned. No matter how rugged the design, several megawatts of laser pulse delivered directly to the operating mechanism is going to be bad for the weapon. If it's a turret, it's similarly doomed - being permanently exposed and likewise having to face towards the enemy in order to fire.

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Multiple mobile weapons with enough range and precision to inflict damage on sensitive parts of the enemy become favorable.
Wait, how did "mobile" become an advantage? You kinda slipped that in there without explaining it. And why do I suspect you're going to immediately jump from "mobile" to "not on the ship" without explaining that, either?
"Mobile" becomes an advantage over static due to static weapons being vulnerable, as per above. This is, still, assuming engagements happen as they realistically would - at great distances with enough light lag to make lasers need to lead their target. There are many problems with mobile weapons affixed to the ship's hull - far from the least of which is that they're never going to be as armored as the ship itself, and unless they're literally little magnetically-attached scooting tanks they will introduce weakpoints in the armor they're attached to.

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They are used at large ranges to avoid incoming enemy fire where regular weapon turrets are incapable of this,
Why? Again, the turrets can be made mobile if it's that much of an issue, and the ability to dodge in space is pretty much nil except against kinetic weapons at low speeds or extreme ranges.
Half a second of light lag in either direction is enough to make lasers pitifully ineffective against anything capable of suddenly changing direction. You assume mobile turrets are only going to be used by one side - if they're so effective, both sides will use them. With both sides using them, the tactics of countering them changes from destroying the turrets themselves to destroying their means of moving around. The next logical step is disconnecting the turrets from the ship - making a weapons platform drone.

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Attack drones use starts to expand when both sides use drones. As they are mobile weapons, the engagement ranges close to eliminate the possibility of dodging due to laser lag.
You mean it was possible to dodge before? Referring to those fighters, there.
Yes. Assuming realistic engagement ranges, again. At close range, less than some ten thousand kilometers, missiles and fighters alike can be used because their travel time to target becomes survivable, especially with counter-PD fire. The whole idea of fighters being useless stems from the fact that they can never get into range before being destroyed, because real engagement ranges in space are going to be vast.

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Eventually fights progress into mixed drone/ship combat with ships and drones both exchanging fire at long and medium ranges.
Unless, of course, you have accurate, long-range lasers that can heavily damage ships before they get in fighter/etc range. Or you could always shoot down the drones as they get closer.
The whole thing with drones began exactly because everyone had those accurate lasers in the first place - any heavy weapons you so much as point in the direction of the enemy while not covered by protective armor covers are going to be slagged as a first priority. So everyone focuses on taking out those long-range accurate lasers first, and then someone has the idea to put long-range accurate lasers on something more agile and less restricted than a turret running around the ship's hull.

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Unless drones possess individual intelligence on par with human, effective countermeasures are being employed to fool the opposing sides' drone AI.
Which are most eaisly and cheaply remedied with a patch, not--
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Human presence is required on the field to control and direct drones in situations where light lag would prove disastrous.
--that.
Patch it once, twice, how many times? Programs are never perfect, and every error in combat is a fight lost. Drones will always need human supervision, because it's impossible to account for all the possible changes in tactics the enemy can employ.

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Squadrons of mixed piloted and drone fighters are adopted as standard, all designed to appear identical on sensors, to provide in-situ control of AI drones.
Which requires wasting space in the drones so they have fake life support and whatnot.
Heh. Fake life support. Why not simply extra batteries? Maybe some redundant sensor arrays? CPU cooling systems?

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That's about as far as I can hypothesize it.
Mind starting over?
[/quote]Eenope. See no need. ^_^

ninja laser edit: A pulse laser weapon is inherently bad at going through armor. It's equally good at melting tough armor and weak armor, but both of those are at best chipped away - armor ablation, as you yourself called it. The entire pulse, all of its energy, goes into the topmost layer of armor, which immediately boils away, leaving the rest of the armor partially melted but only receiving as much damage as the vaporized portion of the armor managed to conduct to it. So, not very good unless rapid-firing and hitting the same spot multiple times.
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Taricus

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #624 on: February 07, 2014, 04:18:14 pm »

Any laser is inherently bad at going through armour would be CW, pulse lasers tend to be able to crate laser ablation effects. (Laser ablation does exist, see here.) It wouldn't just be the topmost layer of armour damaged so much as it is several layers at once unless there's a decent amount of empty space between each layer.

That is what I've been talking about, where have you been?
From half your posts, that's inaccurate. And I was discussing the basic theoretics of a pulse laser to be used in combat.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #625 on: February 07, 2014, 04:20:01 pm »

EDIT: I've got to go, can someone point to the place I screwed up quotes?

They hit the power plants though, that would open every window for an assaults.
Wait, how do they hit the power plants?

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And while they would have less supplies, they're able to be resupplied from outside whereas you cannot.
Um, actually we can. I highly doubt that Hephaestus is heavily dependent on food imports, and if so we can just have the AM ignore conservation of energy and make some.

The intent is to say that the weapons themselves are easier to hit than the fighters. That the fighters can be hit with relative ease by laser weapons I'll take for granted here.
Overall, there's not much difference unless the fighters are burning delta-v like candy and there is some good range between them. Otherwise, the fact that the mobile turrets can change velocity easily means that such systems would probably be harder to hit!

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The general notion of combat, if ships are merely captured instead of destroyed, would lean towards that, yes.
So wouldn't the tendency be to make PD turrets instead of fighter weapons, and then PD weapons instead of all the other fighter-associated systems?


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A reasonable enough assumption, given that we're talking about large weapons here. A laser powerful enough to count as anti-ship, and focused to a distance of greater than a light-second, may well have a focusing lens measured in meters. At distances of over a light-second, any opening in armor more than a foot wide, be it for lasers or projectile weapons, aimed anywhere in the general direction of an enemy ship, may as well be a tunnel straight through it as far as weapon reach in concerned. No matter how rugged the design, several megawatts of laser pulse delivered directly to the operating mechanism is going to be bad for the weapon. If it's a turret, it's similarly doomed - being permanently exposed and likewise having to face towards the enemy in order to fire.
On the other hand, you also have to hit a pretty small target. And that the exposed part is the important part.
Turrets are pretty vulnerable, if you hit them.

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"Mobile" becomes an advantage over static due to static weapons being vulnerable, as per above.
Ah. That would support the definition of "mobile" that does not require large amounts of delta-v to be expended on dodging.

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There are many problems with mobile weapons affixed to the ship's hull - far from the least of which is that they're never going to be as armored as the ship itself, and unless they're literally little magnetically-attached scooting tanks they will introduce weakpoints in the armor they're attached to.
The fighters you're proposing will also never be as well-armored as ships, and have a variety of weak points.

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Half a second of light lag in either direction is enough to make lasers pitifully ineffective against anything capable of suddenly changing direction. You assume mobile turrets are only going to be used by one side - if they're so effective, both sides will use them. With both sides using them, the tactics of countering them changes from destroying the turrets themselves to destroying their means of moving around. The next logical step is disconnecting the turrets from the ship - making a weapons platform drone.
Alternate strategy...use these same turrets to disable the enemy turrets, which will be less numerous than your if they expend resources on fighters.
And the turrets are much better at "suddenly changing direction" than fighters are. No delta-v restrictions.

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Yes. Assuming realistic engagement ranges, again. At close range, less than some ten thousand kilometers, missiles and fighters alike can be used because their travel time to target becomes survivable, especially with counter-PD fire. The whole idea of fighters being useless stems from the fact that they can never get into range before being destroyed, because real engagement ranges in space are going to be vast.
On the other hand, such close distances make dodging even harder. And the enemy is likely going to have more turrets than you do fighters...


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The whole thing with drones began exactly because everyone had those accurate lasers in the first place - any heavy weapons you so much as point in the direction of the enemy while not covered by protective armor covers are going to be slagged as a first priority. So everyone focuses on taking out those long-range accurate lasers first, and then someone has the idea to put long-range accurate lasers on something more agile and less restricted than a turret running around the ship's hull.
However, they then become limited in delta-v because it depends on reaction mass, and they also get even more restricted in armor, and they have to cram a pilot in there. And they fly right at the enemy, an easy target.
Not a great tradeoff.


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Patch it once, twice, how many times? Programs are never perfect, and every error in combat is a fight lost. Drones will always need human supervision, because it's impossible to account for all the possible changes in tactics the enemy can employ.
Humans are also fallible. More so than machines, because they can miss much more easily--and a miss is pretty much death, given the likely rocket-tag nature of space combat. Especially in little unarmored fighters.


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Heh. Fake life support. Why not simply extra batteries? Maybe some redundant sensor arrays? CPU cooling systems?
My oint being that it makes the drones more expensive.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2014, 08:27:33 pm by GreatWyrmGold »
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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #626 on: February 07, 2014, 04:23:47 pm »

The planet was described as an industrial one, no? It would need food and other raw materials in order to continue manufacturing. While you could convert other matter into food, no idea if would be edible (Or if anyone would eat it.)
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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #627 on: February 07, 2014, 06:07:36 pm »

Food on the Sword consists of nutrient rich goop, slabs of something vaugely resembling meat, and nutrient rich slurry. If we eat that, we'll eat anything Heaphestus has to offer.
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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #628 on: February 07, 2014, 08:30:37 pm »

The planet was described as an industrial one, no? It would need food and other raw materials in order to continue manufacturing.
As to food: Easy. If you can farm in Australia, the single driest, least fertile, and by far the overall least hospitable continent in the world, and make that some of your nation's major industries, you can damn well farm on Hephaestus. (Or you can use hydroponics or something.)
And as for raw materials...mining, recycling, or barring that we can just not make more stuff until the fleet leaves.

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While you could convert other matter into food, no idea if would be edible (Or if anyone would eat it.)
Why wouldn't it be? In the end, food is just a bunch of specific chemicals arranged in a certain manner.
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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #629 on: February 07, 2014, 08:38:22 pm »

Welp, Time for us to make a Hephaestus defense thread!
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