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Author Topic: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC and NEW PLAYER INFO  (Read 2488751 times)

Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #390 on: February 05, 2014, 04:59:32 am »

Would it be feasible to have a tank with a twin heavy gauss cannon, with a coaxial fully-automatic gauss machinegun?
"Fully automatic" and "gauss" don't really work well together. You basically need not only double the capacitor banks for firing, but also a generator that can refill a capacitor bank in the same space of time that the weapon cycles, and a secondary accelerator chamber to prevent damage from rapid inductive heating. So possible, but starts losing out to more conventional firearms (albeit with less conventional self-oxidizing propellants for space use) in terms of firepower-to-mass-carried. And, of course, not really a problem for a mounted weapon, so - I don't see many problems with that. ^_^
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Multiworld Madness Archive:
Game One, Discontinued at World 3.
Game Two, Discontinued at World 1.

"Europe has to grow out of the mindset that Europe's problems are the world's problems, but the world's problems are not Europe's problems."
- Subrahmanyam Jaishankar, Minister of External Affairs, India

smurfingtonthethird

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #391 on: February 05, 2014, 05:09:37 am »

Ah, was thinking of a quad-barrel design, because of our lack of infantry suppressing weapons. Cooling systems shouldn't be so hard with our advanced tech.
Now to whack the twin-gauss cannon on a tank chassis, and maybe even install a coaxial tesla arc for some extra anti-infantry defense.

I was also thinking of cooking up some particularly nasty grenades. Throw one at a tank and watch it go kaboom.

Could we possibly cook up an AI that can drive a tank?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 06:17:25 am by smurfingtonthethird »
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #392 on: February 05, 2014, 08:35:49 am »

We sure can. True AI ain't possible (or at least too much hassle for the gain), but basic learning programs can be made, and a CPU-driven tank is hardly the most outlandish idea we've ever conceived here (case in point: Artee).

As for cooking up particularly nasty grenades... well, you'd be hard pressed to make grenades nastier than Simus' ClF3 bomblets, or Anton's little "token of appreciation" kinamp-sandwich directional penetrator, that can cripple a Battlesuit on contact detonation while being the size of half a soda can.
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Multiworld Madness Archive:
Game One, Discontinued at World 3.
Game Two, Discontinued at World 1.

"Europe has to grow out of the mindset that Europe's problems are the world's problems, but the world's problems are not Europe's problems."
- Subrahmanyam Jaishankar, Minister of External Affairs, India

Tavik Toth

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #393 on: February 05, 2014, 08:59:57 am »

We sure can. True AI ain't possible (or at least too much hassle for the gain), but basic learning programs can be made, and a CPU-driven tank is hardly the most outlandish idea we've ever conceived here (case in point: Artee).

As for cooking up particularly nasty grenades... well, you'd be hard pressed to make grenades nastier than Simus' ClF3 bomblets, or Anton's little "token of appreciation" kinamp-sandwich directional penetrator, that can cripple a Battlesuit on contact detonation while being the size of half a soda can.
I wonder if it is possible to make a FOOF grenade...
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Caellath

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #394 on: February 05, 2014, 09:05:44 am »

"Fully automatic" and "gauss" don't really work well together.

piecewise did once say the Avatar's coilgun is a fully-automatic gauss cannon, which does work to give you an idea of how deadly those things are/needed to be.
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Tiruin

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #395 on: February 05, 2014, 09:10:45 am »

To forward this suggestion before I'd IC suggest it..perhaps: Boarding parties take an AI out of Steve. Initiate basic control. :3
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syvarris

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #396 on: February 05, 2014, 10:09:40 am »

@Smurfington

Uhh, it's worthless if it can't tank a direct hit from a eighth-kiloton nuke?  Really?

@Sean
Yeah, a hexacopter wouldn't be able to fulfill all the stuff an Artee could be made to fulfill.  Really, when I started this conversation, I had only intended to show that a quadcopter would be a better platform than a horse.  I was of the opinion that any made-from-scratch thing like this is a bad idea from the outset, simply because they almost always cost more than a battlesuit or something.  Frankly, an RT simply isn't worth the tokens just because of that.

Although, honestly, I don't much understand the utility of an RT to begin with.  It has light weaponry, and medifoam.  The component prices PW quoted to you didn't include armor, so it wouldn't be able to take a gauss round.  It's too expensive to use as mobile cover or transport.  What is it's purpose?

Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #397 on: February 05, 2014, 10:42:32 am »

@Smurfington

Uhh, it's worthless if it can't tank a direct hit from a eighth-kiloton nuke?  Really?

@Sean
Yeah, a hexacopter wouldn't be able to fulfill all the stuff an Artee could be made to fulfill.  Really, when I started this conversation, I had only intended to show that a quadcopter would be a better platform than a horse.  I was of the opinion that any made-from-scratch thing like this is a bad idea from the outset, simply because they almost always cost more than a battlesuit or something.  Frankly, an RT simply isn't worth the tokens just because of that.

Although, honestly, I don't much understand the utility of an RT to begin with.  It has light weaponry, and medifoam.  The component prices PW quoted to you didn't include armor, so it wouldn't be able to take a gauss round.  It's too expensive to use as mobile cover or transport.  What is it's purpose?

It's not intended to be a DIY kit, for one. The individual price of everything that goes into a standard Battlesuit exceeds its own cost in tokens for instance, because tokens are not currency per se. If it goes into production - if it goes into production - it won't be more expensive to produce than any other piece of equipment.

The Artee's purpose is to be a general support unit. It does cost more than two gunnerbots in tokens, but apart from lack of heavier weaponry, let's see what you get. Four independently targeting laser weapons, grenade launcher, cameyes, medical capability, battering ram of considerable power, more than twice the carrying capacity of a humanoid - all in an agile, compact unit that has enough intelligence to act on its own rather than just follow commands.

A gunnerbot is a heavy weapons platform that you send forward to avoid risking your life. An Artee is an artificial teammate, in all regards that don't involve manual dexterity, prepackaged with everything it needs to have.

I mean, for instance, take a Sod. Take a brain, put it inside a cybernetic body, give it a laser rifle, a kinetic amp, some grenades, and a medikit. That's a DIY trooper. 4 token body, plus brain, plus 2 token laser rifle, 3 token amp, 1 token grenades, 3 token medkit. Sans brain, already 13 token.

And the Artee is the same, except it's designed to be prepackaged with two laser rifles, two hand lasers, and two grenade launchers for weapons - all or most of which it can use simultaneously and against different targets - plus a kinetic amp it can literally put its entire body mass behind for striking (ever been headbutted by a ram?), plus the medifoam. And it can run faster, and carry more than the cyber-body Sod. And doesn't need to reload its lasers.

I agree that quantity is its own quality when it comes to Sods, but for a support unit that's meant to help others fight more than fight on its own, an Artee outperforms its cost in similarly equipped Sods. Apart from, again, the whole lack of hands thing. But there's the Artoo modification for that. And the Arthree (R3) modification for sheer combat duty, which, at least theoretically, outguns its cost in gunnerbots.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 10:54:51 am by Sean Mirrsen »
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Multiworld Madness Archive:
Game One, Discontinued at World 3.
Game Two, Discontinued at World 1.

"Europe has to grow out of the mindset that Europe's problems are the world's problems, but the world's problems are not Europe's problems."
- Subrahmanyam Jaishankar, Minister of External Affairs, India

syvarris

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #398 on: February 05, 2014, 11:13:10 am »

Okay.  Well, you should be able to fit that full weapons complement and medical stuff into a hexacopter.  Arguably, it would be difficult to make all the weapons be capable of firing in any direction, but putting half of them on the side and half on the bottom would work. And you'd need manipulator arms if you wanted to use the medifoam.  The CPU for acting alone is way easier, because flying requires much less processing than walking.

What you can't get with this hexacopter is the extra weight, the battering ram, or the ability to follow an ally through tight spaces.  It gains mobility, mostly.

I have to ask, why do you have all those weak anti-infantry weapons instead of something like a single cutting laser?  It would cost the same if you removed all the ranged weapons, and it would gain anti vehicle ability.  And a cutting laser is massively effective against infantry.

Toaster

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #399 on: February 05, 2014, 11:23:28 am »

Have we asked Steve what they're armed with?  He sent the ships out that were ostensibly his ships, so he should know what's on them.
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #400 on: February 05, 2014, 11:28:43 am »

Okay.  Well, you should be able to fit that full weapons complement and medical stuff into a hexacopter.  Arguably, it would be difficult to make all the weapons be capable of firing in any direction, but putting half of them on the side and half on the bottom would work. And you'd need manipulator arms if you wanted to use the medifoam.  The CPU for acting alone is way easier, because flying requires much less processing than walking.

What you can't get with this hexacopter is the extra weight, the battering ram, or the ability to follow an ally through tight spaces.  It gains mobility, mostly.

I have to ask, why do you have all those weak anti-infantry weapons instead of something like a single cutting laser?  It would cost the same if you removed all the ranged weapons, and it would gain anti vehicle ability.  And a cutting laser is massively effective against infantry.
I've been given the dimensions of the cutting laser, and... well, suffice to say my initial plan of having it integrated as a body-length weapon was scrapped because the Artee does not have sufficient body length to accomodate it, even if you forget that it would need to fire through its brain. So instead I chose a selection of smaller weapons, both giving it multitarget capability, and removing the need to keep the Artee's weapons loaded, since all but the grenade launchers feed directly from its integrated generator. A cutting laser would probably be able to feed from the generator as well, but it'd need to be externally mounted, and it's not a small weapon.

That said, the primary difference of the R3 variant besides the extra armor is the sacrificing of carrying space on the back in favor of a spinal turret mount for heavy weapons, firing either broadside or forward with the unit's head lowered. Any heavy weapons, given the carry weight capacity and the ability to brace easily for firing, but the cutting laser and the HEP are the primary candidates given that it can supply them both with energy indefinitely. A Gauss Cannon or Coilgun could likewise be used, but keeping ammunition stocked may be more of a problem for a unit without hands.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 11:33:07 am by Sean Mirrsen »
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Multiworld Madness Archive:
Game One, Discontinued at World 3.
Game Two, Discontinued at World 1.

"Europe has to grow out of the mindset that Europe's problems are the world's problems, but the world's problems are not Europe's problems."
- Subrahmanyam Jaishankar, Minister of External Affairs, India

syvarris

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #401 on: February 05, 2014, 11:41:22 am »

Hmm.  The size of the cutting laser is probably the big thing here.  The hexacopter only has a hundred pounds of carry weight, including it's generator.  Considering a gauss rifle's generator gives 2 TPU, and a CL draws 8 TPU*, the generator would be amazingly light.  I don't see this thing drawing more power than a laser that melts through steel with ease.  But if a cutting laser alone weighs more than a hundred pounds... well, you'd have to upscale.  ...Which wouldn't be all that hard actually.

Gah, I keep convincing myself this thing's a good idea, which goes against my principles!

*Source.  I'll go put it on the wiki.

GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #402 on: February 05, 2014, 12:09:28 pm »

Remember how I promised to drop the matter if UP did?

This fact is not altered just because she changed her mind afterwards and had the doc revive him.
Um, she didn't change her mind. She discovered that her actions as-is would lead to permadeath and left you in the care of licensed medical professionals.

Quote
Auron never acknowledged Simus authority over him extending past the survey
So?

Quote
and this was never corrected by Steve.
Yes it was. Right before the electrocutions. (Or was it right after?)

Quote
even after the electrocution he only requested that Auron follow her orders, he never ordered it
That's politeness, in my view. The fact that he wanted it done should be enough, and in case it isn't the electrocution should have made his desires clear.

Quote
and he never stated that Auron was incorrect in assuming he was previously operating outside of Simus authority.
Of course not, he let the electrocution do the talking for him.
When was the last time you got shocked and hadn't done something wrong?

Quote
Auron can claim temporary insanity for the assault, Simus cant plead shit for murder.
Temporary insanity just means you get locked up in a mental ward instead of a jail cell, you know. And when everyone is more or less permanently insane, temporary insanity probably isn't a defense.
Besides, she can plead several things. Temporary insanity, for reasons as good as Auron's (unless he claims that the electrocution screwed with his sanity), for instance. She would also have her hypothetical sentence reduced due to her lack of desire to actually kill Auron (and really, what did she do to him?), and her damaged emotional state due to both Auron's attitude and his actions.

Quote
you say Jim wants to avoid complications later on but punishing auron for ignoring the authority of those he was never instructed to respect,
Yes he did. Belatedly, but he did.
zapzapzap

Quote
reflexively attacking someone who caused great pain to befall him
"Reflexively"? Good luck defending that in court. And Simus told Steve to decide whether to shock you or not; she wasn't the cause any more than the postman who informed FDR of Pearl Harbor was the cause of American involvement in WWII.

[quote
and accidentally causing minor damages
[/quote]
MINOR?!?

Now, stop getting things wrong just to try to drag this out.
To be fair, that's not his intent. His intent is to get his way, dragging this out is his method.

You are a UWM councilman, discussing how to deal with the worker rebellion on Hephaestus. Known assets include massive industrial capability and advanced defense systems, notably including laser batteries which will shoot down most incoming projectiles. They may also have seized some dangerous weapons from an HMRC craft which was scheduled to dock there around the time of the rebellion, but this theory is unsubstantiated. They have a year to prepare, as well, and they will likely use this time to make weapons, more defenses, and war machines.
What weapons and such would you advise bringing to quell this rebellion, with minimal loss of life or property?
Bioweapons, chemical weapons, EMP weapons.
If it was me leading the UWM Invasion forces though, I'd be feeling pretty bad to be a rebel. There's not going to be much left after I would hypothetically sort that situation out. Due to the massive production capability of the world, I'd start laying waste to every vital factory on it, starting with shipyards for starships and then hitting the facilities for stuff like armour, robotic units and the like. The only time there's be boots on the ground would be in the aftermath just to tally up deaths, and not likely then due to the use of drones and such.
No offense, but I don't think that solves the UWM's problems at all.
1. You're destroying their ability to make more war machines, not their war machines. They will be more or less as powerful as they were before the bombing runs.
2. Mission objectives clearly state that you not blow everything up.
3. Again, the laser batteries.

Chemical weapons. SO MANY.
Poison gases, diseases, take your pick. Kill off the little rebels with no casualties.
...except for the civilians. Not a bad choice, but not the best. Especially given the various defenses against chemical weapons and a lack of a good means to spread them, unless the chemicals can resist laser heats and massive diffusion.
(And diseases are bioweapons, not chemical.)

Spoiler: Copter talk (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Same (click to show/hide)

Quote
Good idea:
Get scout eye.  Get cutting laser.  Fly scout eye around corner, video enemies.  Shoot through walls.

Why has nobody done this?
I'm not sure, but the frailty of scout eyes is probably a major consideration.

Really, when I started this conversation, I had only intended to show that a quadcopter would be a better platform than a horse.
There is no such thing as a universally better anything, barring extreme examples. There is only "better for a given task".

medical capability
What's medifoam, anyways?
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #403 on: February 05, 2014, 12:27:34 pm »

What's medifoam, anyways?
Think construction foam, except filled with sanitation, coagulant boosting and cleaning agents, and more elastic when expanded.
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Multiworld Madness Archive:
Game One, Discontinued at World 3.
Game Two, Discontinued at World 1.

"Europe has to grow out of the mindset that Europe's problems are the world's problems, but the world's problems are not Europe's problems."
- Subrahmanyam Jaishankar, Minister of External Affairs, India

Taricus

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #404 on: February 05, 2014, 12:38:21 pm »

You are a UWM councilman, discussing how to deal with the worker rebellion on Hephaestus. Known assets include massive industrial capability and advanced defense systems, notably including laser batteries which will shoot down most incoming projectiles. They may also have seized some dangerous weapons from an HMRC craft which was scheduled to dock there around the time of the rebellion, but this theory is unsubstantiated. They have a year to prepare, as well, and they will likely use this time to make weapons, more defenses, and war machines.
What weapons and such would you advise bringing to quell this rebellion, with minimal loss of life or property?
Bioweapons, chemical weapons, EMP weapons.
If it was me leading the UWM Invasion forces though, I'd be feeling pretty bad to be a rebel. There's not going to be much left after I would hypothetically sort that situation out. Due to the massive production capability of the world, I'd start laying waste to every vital factory on it, starting with shipyards for starships and then hitting the facilities for stuff like armour, robotic units and the like. The only time there's be boots on the ground would be in the aftermath just to tally up deaths, and not likely then due to the use of drones and such.
No offense, but I don't think that solves the UWM's problems at all.
1. You're destroying their ability to make more war machines, not their war machines. They will be more or less as powerful as they were before the bombing runs.
2. Mission objectives clearly state that you not blow everything up.
3. Again, the laser batteries.
Maybe, but destroying the rebels ability to produce reinforcements makes it THAT much easier on the invasion force, since the enemy numbers are now static. And the objective may state that, but the thing is with rebels this close to civilian populations and infrastructure, something has to give way, and that's not about to be the mission of eliminating the rebels.

As for the laser batters, or ANY ground-based batteries in general, is that they will be UTTERLY useless and priority targets for orbital bombing. If the UWM fleet has any kinetic weapons on their ships, the only thing they have to worry about when it comes down to bombing the planet is making sure it hits, and the time between firing the shot and said shot impacting the target. Really, once that invasion fleet gets there, you're literally at their mercy: You can't get supplies from off-world, nor can you leave it. Any attempts to build a weapon to strike at them would be pounded into oblivion.
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