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[Egan_BW]

It bears testing at least, to see how much work it is in practice.

[syvarris]

I have tried several combinations of messing with my screen size and I cannot replicate what you're talking about. Are you on a phone?

I was when I typed that, as I am 90% of the time, but I checked on a laptop, and it's still messed up, just in a slightly different way.  It's generally just a good idea to use a non variable font when graphically depicting things with text, as more people than not will see it incorrectly.

Hell, different methods of viewing things on the forum get different results.  I bet if you look at the body part diagrams in your post history, they'll be differently aligned.

The limit is more due to balancing, but really, we could go without it. If someone wants to pack all their bits onto one thing and then have that thing severed and destroyed, good for them.

Hmm.  Mostly, that seems self-balancing, especially if limb parts actually do provide some benefit.  However, what if a person takes their torso and piles on a bunch of single parts that don't need humanity or limbs to be useful; say they just cover their torso in twenty guns and six or so feet.  Then, they can pile a vast amount of armor onto that one torso part, and have so many redundant parts that they don't lose much by them being chopped off.  Should be far less risky than... having a core with any other body type.

Maybe that's balanced by things having an actual cost upon attaching them?  So you can only have X number of extra parts, making severe redundancy difficult to achieve.  Not sure if that's how the system works already.

Thats a good question. Its the sort of thing that is kind of hard to write universal rules for because, even in the gun limb thing, you could theoretically amble around with the barrels of the guns acting like legs. It may be a judgement thing of giving bonuses and negatives where it seems right, but I don't really like that because it's too subjective. We could have tags for "Movement" but would a foot be a movement part? Could I staple a foot to the gun ball and suddenly it works?

I was talking about the gunspiderman thing with a friend earlier, and they ended up drawing this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Anyway, I think you might as well just let everyone move regardless of their composition; there'll always be some way they could make it work.  Even the aforementioned gunball should be able to... roll, I guess.

If not, I suggest you split movement into three or four simple categories, and let players state how they move.  You look at their system, and categorize it.  That shouldn't be too easy to exploit.

Senses are another oddity. I mean, actual demons don't need human senses right? A skeleton has no structures for it, but it can do them. If I replace my head with a skull, do I lose those functions even though the skeleton had them? Should we just assume magical sensing? And if so, can I also have utility parts that somehow make it better?

Ehhh.  I think just assuming magical senses is the way to go, but having additional parts that can improve senses is tempting.  The clear problem there is monsters that have those senses by default, but either don't have sensing organs (like the aformentioned skeletons), or do, but are just plain superior to other options because of it.  Do you want some demon parts to be flat out better than all other options?  Because if there's cameye equivalents, that's gonna happen.

And you could slave a demon hand to a normal hand but it really wouldn't do anything. Slaved parts act as modifiers to master parts. A demon hand and a human hand are both functional parts with the function of Grasping. Slaving one to the other doesn't really do anything.

Are you sure?  Here's the quote from earlier:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In this case, the gun becomes a side branch of the hand. The Hand remains functional, as does the gun. Imagine it like the gun growing out of the back of the hand or maybe on the wrist. In this way, multiple [end] parts can be connected, either independently or in a slave/master relationship. There's a branching maximum of 4 branches from any single part though, so no building a 20 gun bracelet around your hand.

I took this to mean both end parts remain functional when branched from each other.  Which means a second hand could hold a second thing, such as a gun, or a shield.  Maybe a different type of sword, which grants a different type of bonus.  Both hands would benefit from the limb's bonus.

A significant problem here arises when someone tries to use both hands in the same turn.  Sure, you could say they can't attack with two weapons held at the end of an arm in the same turn, but what if they have a sword and shield?  Do they specify whether they're using the arm for offense or defense, every turn?  What if they go up to six arms doing this, so that they have a large amount of flexibility with their defense/offense tradeoff?  This is exactly the sort of thing I'd do.

How about a tag for things you might use to modify a part? Like, say, you find some demon bit with needles, and you want the needles, but not the tail the needles grow on. Maybe you could have an [accessory] tag or something for things like needles, eyes, antennae, ears, horns?, arm spikes, scales, fur, feathers, etc. Might be nice for added diversity if players could play around with the extras a little.

Purely cosmetic stuff like that should just be free, or nearly free, IMO.  People shouldn't be able to mix and match traits, because that would be hell to balance--people would take all the best bits from all the best demon parts, and integrate them with their human parts, so that they get the best of every world.  But cosmetic customization would be nice.

Most will get pruned, leaving the best, the most popular, and the ones the GM prefers.

Fixed that for you.

[piecewise]

I have tried several combinations of messing with my screen size and I cannot replicate what you're talking about. Are you on a phone?

I was when I typed that, as I am 90% of the time, but I checked on a laptop, and it's still messed up, just in a slightly different way.  It's generally just a good idea to use a non variable font when graphically depicting things with text, as more people than not will see it incorrectly.

Hell, different methods of viewing things on the forum get different results.  I bet if you look at the body part diagrams in your post history, they'll be differently aligned.

The limit is more due to balancing, but really, we could go without it. If someone wants to pack all their bits onto one thing and then have that thing severed and destroyed, good for them.

Hmm.  Mostly, that seems self-balancing, especially if limb parts actually do provide some benefit.  However, what if a person takes their torso and piles on a bunch of single parts that don't need humanity or limbs to be useful; say they just cover their torso in twenty guns and six or so feet.  Then, they can pile a vast amount of armor onto that one torso part, and have so many redundant parts that they don't lose much by them being chopped off.  Should be far less risky than... having a core with any other body type.

Maybe that's balanced by things having an actual cost upon attaching them?  So you can only have X number of extra parts, making severe redundancy difficult to achieve.  Not sure if that's how the system works already.

Thats a good question. Its the sort of thing that is kind of hard to write universal rules for because, even in the gun limb thing, you could theoretically amble around with the barrels of the guns acting like legs. It may be a judgement thing of giving bonuses and negatives where it seems right, but I don't really like that because it's too subjective. We could have tags for "Movement" but would a foot be a movement part? Could I staple a foot to the gun ball and suddenly it works?

I was talking about the gunspiderman thing with a friend earlier, and they ended up drawing this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Anyway, I think you might as well just let everyone move regardless of their composition; there'll always be some way they could make it work.  Even the aforementioned gunball should be able to... roll, I guess.

If not, I suggest you split movement into three or four simple categories, and let players state how they move.  You look at their system, and categorize it.  That shouldn't be too easy to exploit.

Senses are another oddity. I mean, actual demons don't need human senses right? A skeleton has no structures for it, but it can do them. If I replace my head with a skull, do I lose those functions even though the skeleton had them? Should we just assume magical sensing? And if so, can I also have utility parts that somehow make it better?

Ehhh.  I think just assuming magical senses is the way to go, but having additional parts that can improve senses is tempting.  The clear problem there is monsters that have those senses by default, but either don't have sensing organs (like the aformentioned skeletons), or do, but are just plain superior to other options because of it.  Do you want some demon parts to be flat out better than all other options?  Because if there's cameye equivalents, that's gonna happen.

And you could slave a demon hand to a normal hand but it really wouldn't do anything. Slaved parts act as modifiers to master parts. A demon hand and a human hand are both functional parts with the function of Grasping. Slaving one to the other doesn't really do anything.

Are you sure?  Here's the quote from earlier:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In this case, the gun becomes a side branch of the hand. The Hand remains functional, as does the gun. Imagine it like the gun growing out of the back of the hand or maybe on the wrist. In this way, multiple [end] parts can be connected, either independently or in a slave/master relationship. There's a branching maximum of 4 branches from any single part though, so no building a 20 gun bracelet around your hand.

I took this to mean both end parts remain functional when branched from each other.  Which means a second hand could hold a second thing, such as a gun, or a shield.  Maybe a different type of sword, which grants a different type of bonus.  Both hands would benefit from the limb's bonus.

A significant problem here arises when someone tries to use both hands in the same turn.  Sure, you could say they can't attack with two weapons held at the end of an arm in the same turn, but what if they have a sword and shield?  Do they specify whether they're using the arm for offense or defense, every turn?  What if they go up to six arms doing this, so that they have a large amount of flexibility with their defense/offense tradeoff?  This is exactly the sort of thing I'd do.

How about a tag for things you might use to modify a part? Like, say, you find some demon bit with needles, and you want the needles, but not the tail the needles grow on. Maybe you could have an [accessory] tag or something for things like needles, eyes, antennae, ears, horns?, arm spikes, scales, fur, feathers, etc. Might be nice for added diversity if players could play around with the extras a little.

Purely cosmetic stuff like that should just be free, or nearly free, IMO.  People shouldn't be able to mix and match traits, because that would be hell to balance--people would take all the best bits from all the best demon parts, and integrate them with their human parts, so that they get the best of every world.  But cosmetic customization would be nice.

Most will get pruned, leaving the best, the most popular, and the ones the GM prefers.

Fixed that for you.

Well the twenty gun torso would require twenty levels of slots to do or drastically reduce their humanity. And the 4 limit was basically the way to prevent boring stuff like that. Because otherwise we get into strange and annoying rules of giving bonuses for having weapons at the end of X length limbs or something.

The thing with the hand is because you said to slave it. Slaved parts don't function independently, they act like a combined part. You want them to act independently.  It does bring up the problem of what an action consists of. Because I could just say "You can only do one action with one functional part each turn" but that's pretty limited. At the same time I don't want to say you can just use the actions of one limb each turn because then people like you will stack every weapon on their right arm and say "I hit the monster with my  35 swords for 50d10 damage".

[Unholy_Pariah]

I say let them equip 35 swords to their right arm and let them deal the 50d10 damage.

of course id deal the damage to them and not the monster, trying to lift 35 swords is gonna give you one hell of a hernia.

[DoctorMcTaalik]

Maybe the amount of mass (or, in more abstract terms, the number of parts) you can exert direct, conscious influence over at any given time should be limited by some sort of "multitasking" mechanic.

One way you could do this is give everybody some number of "multitasking points", which would either be consistent across the board, or derived from a character's starting stats. Every part has a "use cost", which is subtracted from your MP when you actively use it (that means moving it, storing your consciousness in it, etc). The use cost should reflect both the utility and the mass of the given part; hands and arms would have relatively low costs, while your chest and your weapons would have higher use costs. Your MP must never go below 0, and it replenishes every turn.

[Whisperling]

How about cumulative penalities for actions beyond a certain threshold? Said threshold might be something you could increase by eating demon bits.

[piecewise]

I've been thinking about it and this is what I've come up with:

Sy's problem was that limbs gave no bonus so why not just stick all functional parts on your core? Ok, so we need a reason to put things on limbs. Hows about this: You know how parts give bonuses?  How about they give bonuses to attack if you're using that limb to attack (or do whatever really). For example, Me and some of my buds murder a big Hulk looking mofo demon with arms like muscly tree trunks. And I take one of those arms and Replace my arm with it. That arm gives me +6 strength. But it only gives me that +6 str when I use that limb to attack. So If I used  that limb to swing around a sledge hammer or something, it would have that +6 strength applied to it. But if I were to swing that hammer with my normal arm, I wouldn't get that +6. 

As per how to work with multiple limbs and abilities in one turn, there are two ways to do it so far as I see it. One is a gamble method, based on your speed/agility stat. Basically, you get one action free, but for every action after that, you have to do a speed roll of increasing difficulty for all the subsequent ones. And every failed roll causes a backfire and deals the damage to you instead. So if you're really fast, you can get several attacks in but if you fumble it, you might shoot yourself in the foot. Or head.

The other version is that speed acts as a sort of "Action points". Like what you have in the original XCOM, with each action taking a certain amount of action points to do. Say, shooting your gun takes 5 out of 13 points you have. You could shoot twice and then do something of 3 action points or something.


I like the first one, personally.

[syvarris]

I prefer the latter, because it's simpler.  You say "I make three attacks", and you make three attacks.  With the other system, you say I make three attacks, all three are rolled for, and you could make three attacks, hit yourself three times, or anything in between.  It requires more rolls, and is less predictable.

Is there a reason I shouldn't take that hulk arm, attach it to the end of the other hulk arm, and then have two hulk hands branching off the end of that double arm?  How exactly would you define I can't make two attacks per turn with the full double-arm bonus?

[Whisperling]

First. Seems generally more fun than the second, and probably more streamlined as well.

[piecewise]

I prefer the latter, because it's simpler.  You say "I make three attacks", and you make three attacks.  With the other system, you say I make three attacks, all three are rolled for, and you could make three attacks, hit yourself three times, or anything in between.  It requires more rolls, and is less predictable.

Is there a reason I shouldn't take that hulk arm, attach it to the end of the other hulk arm, and then have two hulk hands branching off the end of that double arm?  How exactly would you define I can't make two attacks per turn with the full double-arm bonus?

Yeah, but the first one can be sure of the first attack, and them probably reasonably sure of how far you can push your luck. And if you really have nothing to lose you can push it to the limit.

Two major reasons
1. Humanity requirements. Basically, huge limbs like that would require either a lot of stating into to make functional, or they'd be a massive drain on humanity. If we assume 3 humanity loss per section and then double for sections beyond normal bounds, you have 9 +18 and now you're a demon.

2. Because If I sever the shoulder you lose that entire big lump of hulk flesh forever.

[Corsair]

Would wings consist of two slots or one? Also as the torso is connected to the head and gut along with the arms doesn't this mean that to have wings we either have to attach them to the gut giving us hilariously ridiculous butt-wings or rip off arms?

[DoctorMcTaalik]

Hmmm... I think they both approaches have their merits. The former sounds fun precisely because it's unpredictable, and seems overall more "RTD-ey" to me, but the latter is better suited for strategic players.

I'm really on the fence here.

[syvarris]

@PW
Okay.  What if I attach both hulk arms to myself normally, but put three hands at the end of each.  What is the mechanical reason I can't make six attacks per turn?

Also, about the system to use, are you sure you want to run the extra complexity of attacks?  It means if you challenge us with a eight-armed monster you'll have seven more dice to roll every time it attacks.

@Corsair
I'm fairly certain PW decided to lift the arbitrary four connections per part limit.  If he didn't, I need to argue about that more.

Your wing question is interesting though.  One part would seemingly make sense because there's no multipliers to be gained, and the current system would imply only one part gives the flight tag, but then does that mean massive wings like this use a third the slots of arms, despite being significantly more massive?

[piecewise]

Would wings consist of two slots or one? Also as the torso is connected to the head and gut along with the arms doesn't this mean that to have wings we either have to attach them to the gut giving us hilariously ridiculous butt-wings or rip off arms?

I've been thinking about flying precisely because flying kind of makes designing areas infinitely harder. Either you need to keep them enclosed or you need to give reasons why flying is bad. Because if not you could just fly to the end of every area.

But as per wings, they would take two slots (roughly. Giant parts might take more slots and something like a rocket pack wouldn't need two to fly) and either you could replace your limbs with them or you could just affix them to your back or anything really. It's just that putting them on your back would either require you to level up an buy the slots on the back, or you'd just have to take the extra humanity malus that comes from building outside the normal bounds.



In terms of stats for this I'm gonna lean towards simple. Strength, Speed, Intelligence and Heart. Which I think might be the RPG planeteers but never mind.
Strength handles Melee damage, giving bonuses to weapons, doing lifting, equip weight, that jazz

Speed handles dodging, how fast you can act, ranged weapon aim, etc.

Intelligence handles basically everything thinking related including attaching parts. Since you can fuck up the attachment process.

Heart relates to humanity, and basically controls how much each part regenerates and the maximum amount you can have.


The game is basically just exploration and combat in terms of rolls players need to make, so I don't think it needs to be too complex. I'm thinking I'll probably go for a fairly high number game, ie you might have 24 strength or something. Allows for more variation and middle ground. With smaller numbers the balancing is kinda weird because of how big a jump in power each one represents.

@PW
Okay.  What if I attach both hulk arms to myself normally, but put three hands at the end of each.  What is the mechanical reason I can't make six attacks per turn?

Also, about the system to use, are you sure you want to run the extra complexity of attacks?  It means if you challenge us with a eight-armed monster you'll have seven more dice to roll every time it attacks.

@Corsair
I'm fairly certain PW decided to lift the arbitrary four connections per part limit.  If he didn't, I need to argue about that more.

Your wing question is interesting though.  One part would seemingly make sense because there's no multipliers to be gained, and the current system would imply only one part gives the flight tag, but then does that mean massive wings like this use a third the slots of arms, despite being significantly more massive?

Mechanically? Nothing besides one of the two limiting factors I mentioned earlier. Ie, either not enough action points or because you're worried you'll backfire.

I'm not sure what you mean? An 8 armed monster would probably attack 2-3 times a turn because any more and it might start shredding itself or it will simply not have the action points to do so. So that's three rolls. I feel like you don't understand the system I'm proposing because you seem to think that having 8 arms automatically means its attacking 8 times or something?

And giant parts would probably just take more slots. So giant wings like that would probably take 3-4 slots.

[syvarris]

I was expecting to find something to complain about with those stats, but nope, they seem balanced fine to me.  Strength and speed both have survivability and damage effects, intelligence and heart are both required for a core mechanic.  Maybe intelligence would be least valuable if you can have buddies attach a part for you?

Mechanically? Nothing besides one of the two limiting factors I mentioned earlier. Ie, either not enough action points or because you're worried you'll backfire.

Okay.  Would the additional hands even be needed for the extra attacks?  Or can I make six attacks per turn once I have enough speed, regardless of whether I'm using six arms or one?  I.E. extra arms/hands are only good for redundancy, and maybe versatility if they hold different weapons?

I'm not sure what you mean? An 8 armed monster would probably attack 2-3 times a turn because any more and it might start shredding itself or it will simply not have the action points to do so. So that's three rolls. I feel like you don't understand the system I'm proposing because you seem to think that having 8 arms automatically means its attacking 8 times or something?

No, I understand the system, I was simply assuming an eight armed thing would be given sufficiently high enough speed to have a good chance of landing eight attacks.  I guess the answer is "Why would I have a monster that attacks so much?" :\

And giant parts would probably just take more slots. So giant wings like that would probably take 3-4 slots.

So, one part which counts as three or four individual parts?  That seems like a good way to handle it.  Would the hulk arms mentioned before work the same way, due to their size?

...Let's say the hulk arms are double size, and split into three segments like human arms.  I replace my left arm with a hulk arm.  That's three slots replaced, at double cost, so six, but they fall within my natural body plan, yes?  There's no extra penalty for having an inhuman body plan?

Now, I replace my right arm with a single giant wing part, which let's say counts as four normal parts.  Does that take up only my "upper arm" slot for my natural body plan, since it's technically one part like the "hulk upper arm"?  Or does it take up all three arm slots, and one "unnatural body plan" slot, because it's the size of four parts?

The former seems unintuitive, but the latter contradicts the hulk arm's intuitive handling.