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[tryrar]

There was Michael going Rambo on a couple guard's asses with his pistol during the bank heist

[Nikitian]

... Well, it's kinda funny that manips and amps are moving into single skill, while other stuff is moving out, making a pure-spess-majick Exo skill - since it all started with adding more non-amp stuff for Exo so that it would not be pretty one-sided as opposed to Uncon. Pity, really pity, but at least Piecewise showed in the end that amps and manips weren't so different as we (I, anyway) considered them to be. And then the cool Int stat is being dropped out (seriously, Syv, why would it be a penalty stat?), its function partly taken over by General Knowledge skill (as if we did not have more skills than stats already).
And while I can totally understand amp users to be perfectly OK with this change, it's saddening that almost no manip users rose up in defense and tried to get heard (regardless of the outcome and possibly foolish preconceptions). Maybe we are - were - a minority, after all.

Regardless, I shall forever be happy that I upheld the honor of the cool dudes originally responsible for the whole event-9 concept. 

[kj1225]

To be fair, I probably would have made a Manip guy eventually.

[Doomblade187]

As an (ex) manipulator user, I support the existence of them, but I am willing to accept a trial run of the new system. I just love the flavor of them, as well as the sheer fun that is Uncon. Though on a related note, they did give Uncon users much-needed flexibility. And a use for INT. Though I don't mind the 'Mind' stat change.

[Lenglon]

am against removing manips.

[Nunzillor]

Hmm.  Set self on fire with a manip, inside suit.  10/10.

But then again they are basically the same as amps in terms of function.  And the confusion over them led to my character's arm and leg getting cut off.  But also to mummies.  That was cool.  So... yeah.

[Execute/Dumbo.exe]

Well, if you wanted to differentiate Manips from Amps, perhaps you could make them:
Require less stat'skill points compared to amps.
Have a solid, limited ammo amount.
Cheaper?
Be weaker than their amp counterparts, so a gravity manip won't have the base destructive power or plain flexibility of a grav amp.
Have less drastic effects on an overshoot or undershoot.
Basically, my overall idea for manips is for them to be a halfway point, while not being as powerful or allowing as much creativity in use as a specialised amp user, they can act as support to a normal weapons or uncon user, giving the powers of an amp user (While limited and with a concrete ammo supply) and keeping them for people who don't want to fully spec into exotic.

[piecewise]

So most people like the Mind stat taking over from the will-int stats; with "General knowledge" taking over for the generalized "Roll to know something"  that int was used for aside from being mind ammo.

This would mean that Manips and Amps used the same stat.

However, there are lots of people against removing manips. I want to hear why. Here's my reasons for thinking about removing them and basically giving the Uncon side of the armory a bunch of new stuff.

1. Manips are exploitable. I already see people thinking about using them as bombs. Damage along this level shouldn't be available for 3 tokens and randomly punching a keypad. I know we have nukes, but those at least can be defended against and require good rolls. And the powerful ones cost more.

2. If we merge int and will into one stat, it rather devalues Manips. They become basically identical to Amps. Which they kind of already were; I've already spilled this on the IRC, but Manips and Amps both directly access your brain. Thats why both cause headaches. The math, which changes every time and which you can't use machines to solve for you, is meaningless. It's just the manip sort of feeding information to your brain to get it to behave the way it needs to use you. The only real difference here is that the Amps access you directly and can deal direct damage to your brain, while Manips use a battery (which contains living human brain tissue) as a sort of proxy. They burn out the batteries instead of you.  So removing them from the armory wouldn't remove them from the universe, it would just be Steve removing them from stock. Automanips and the like would continue to exist and nothing would be retconned. Those of you with manips could get refunds of course, or trade it in for an amp.

3. It would let Exo and Uncon actually be different things. Uncon and exo are very similar as they are; they're literally the same things in terms of amps and manips, just using different skills. And, as people pointed out, Will was a much more useful skill then Int. This means that Manips are basically a less useful version of Amps in many ways, and they really don't have any useful traits beyond their ability to be thrown away if you fuck up. I want to give Uncon it's own sort of feel. Con is your standard soldiers. Aux is techs with tech weapons, Exo is your xeno courting space magic heretics with great power and generally short and messed up lives. And Uncon are urban combat, guerrilla warfare, trap making, melee weirdos who bring a sword made of lightning to a gun fight.

4. Space magic should be much more scary, dangerous and powerful then it is. Right now it's pretty OP and rather banal in a lot of ways. People just casually do things with it. This happened over time and it's not really in mind with what I want for space magic. It's too exploitable right now. So instead of continuing like this, I'd like space magic to become (or return to) something where it's like a grenade with a faulty fuse. It's more powerful with individual uses, but it has consequences and will be used more sparingly and with more thought. Something akin to magic in the lovecraftian setting; it comes from something very bad, and it does bad things to you.  With amps being the only space magic like this, it will let me handle changes like that more easily.

These are my immediate reasons.

[Hapah]

I'm on board.

[Xantalos]

I can get behind that, especially since I might even be moving away from amps in Xan's build. Maybe.
Or I could do both...probably both. Need for things. Sorry, lapsing into plan talk.

[Doomblade187]

Okay. I can understand those reasons, and the increased specialization of the combat arenas makes me happy, so I would be fine with the manip removal. Plus, as you said, the removal does make sense in-universe, where Steve can just pull them from armory stock.

EDIT: Plus, more interesting space magic sounds, well, interesting.

[Nunzillor]

I would look forward to having space magic be more unpredictable and dangerous long-term, kind of like Nyars artifacts.  More interesting and fun.

[renegadelobster]

I think you meant !!FUN!!

[Harry Baldman]

I would like the Exo danger ratcheted up, with manipulators kept in (as Exo items, maybe not standard equipment) lower-danger and/or lower-cost alternatives for amp users who are too chicken for the real deal. As it was, an amp was safe enough to use with a +1. Now, though, manipulators might have a reason to exist aside from the rare overload suicide aversion.

And yes, Intelligence is basically useless and redundant now (not that it wasn't before) that there's two whole knowledge skills (Intuition, General Knowledge). I'd maybe be in favor of removing Intuition and Intelligence, and have Intuition's function (to give you information you wouldn't necessarily have access to, but feels right nevertheless) put into the Fate stat, to reflect that critical moment when the GM feels like throwing you a stat-aided bone, and simply roll what would be a conventional, called Intuition roll ('I intuit what the hell's happening in here!') with General Knowledge, since actual intuition is just taking cues from your environment, perhaps unconsciously.

If you really want to play an idiot, you're not going to need the stat to do it. Anyone who actually puts points into Intelligence usually does it for roleplaying value, while anyone who doesn't usually does it for minmaxing value (although in those cases often low intelligence is consistent with the character's general behavior). Most often, people just disregard Intelligence entirely in-game, because it really is worthless about 90% of the time if you're looking to specifically use it, and if you aren't, it's worthless 100% of the time.

Although I don't see space magic becoming banal being a bad thing. I find that to be the most realistic thing about the setting as well as the most futuristic.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I'd say let Manips be kept in. Make them require more "mindpoints" for the roundabout way of brain access, and let them be more limited or specialized, but there's really nothing more iconic, as far as HMRC fuckups go, than the mass murder manipulator.