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[Xantalos]

Ehehehehehe. With this, my plans can proceed substantially faster.

[Wolfkit]

So, anyone want to take bets on how long until the Amoury Master has to smite Xan?

[Xantalos]

If anyone smites me it'll probably be the Doc since I'm his creation.
But I won't let it come to that.

[swordsmith04]

Oh yes. I'm very much in favor of this change. Right now, I've got a +2/3 to Con because I wasn't willing to put those points into my primary weapon stat, for fear of overshoots; I'm also sitting on over a dozen tokens, saving up for that perfect decompensator. This system would actually incentivize improving main stats beyond +1.

[syvarris]

*Dice system explanation snip*

Opinions?

I like this system for a variety of reasons, but I'll try to play devil's advocate.

1.The primary problem I see happening is inconsistency.  So, I have a +3 to Exo, and roll a one.  How much does the result rely on PW's mood?
2.Similar to the above, if I have a +1 to con, and try something advanced, is it more difficult on the scale of trying a +3 action, or a +2 action?  Does that vary?  How do I tell how difficult it'll be?
3.Currently, someone like Jim "doesn't try--they just DO."  With this system, Jim would always have a 33% chance of failing if he doesn't charge a bonus, even with something trivial.  He'd also have a 33% chance of doing it incorrectly.  If Jim tries to do something basic, what sets him apart from a newbie with a +1?

((Lenglon looks at syvarris inquisitively, silently wondering who falls under which list and why.))

Hmm.  I didn't make any actual lists, but as an example, Toaster would be someone that I'd let use it even though IC I wouldn't let Lars near the thing.  As for someone who IC should be allowed access, but OOC wouldn't be...  Jim/SerCon?  He's inactive, and probably wouldn't have a good idea of what would be dangerous.  Then again, he'd probably stop if someone pointed out that it was dangerous...

Really, most people who would be OOC kept from messing with it would probably be kept from it IC as well.  After all, if someone OOC is willing to take a massive, dangerous risk for mere curiosity, their character has probably already proven that IC as well.

theres also the fact that the guy in charge of flesh sods feels the sods are too valuable to waste on experimentation.

Who?  To my knowledge, while Pyro and Radio are above me in rank, and therefore capable of superseding anything I say, I'm the guy in charge of sods. 

And I don't think either Pyro or Radio would mind fifty sods being used to test the PM.

1.Ship of Theseus
2.hybridization
3.effects similar to the one she users are actually available to players. Well, to one particular player in a certain circumstance.
4.Think about something you never see, a specific part of something that is otherwise pretty damn common.

My guess is that she's a human/synthflesh titan mixture.

1.So her body was replaced slowly.  Maybe it "grew"... through her?  Mixed as it grew, I mean?  Or maybe different parts of her body were treated at different points?
2.See above.  She's a human/synthflesh titan hybrid.
3.Only one?  Who has unique Space Magic powers that nobody else does?  Nyars box users, and Miyamoto with his Avatar.
4.Synthbody brains.  The lone bodies don't have brains aside from the braincase, which we can tell because the user's don't get avatar-like abilities, and Steve can remotely control a synthflesh body.  Either the bodies have powerful inhibitors, or they don't have anything to inhibit.

Of course, that's wild mass guessing.  She could just be a hybrid with the space magic god thingy that we're building a home for on Heph.  Space magic is relatively common, but the part we have in the SMF is the specific part that's never seen.  Or she could be a hybrid with something else.

[Empiricist]

How would it affect a versus roll? Seeing as Speech versus Willpower can persuade people to do certain things, how would the new system run it if say both people rolled the same number but one had higher in the relevant stat?

[Unholy_Pariah]

Hmm i remember that we wanted to use sods back when gwg was still sciencing it and they were deemed too valuable at the time.

[Empiricist]

Hmm i remember that we wanted to use sods back when gwg was still sciencing it and they were deemed too valuable at the time.

My memory is rather hazy, but I think they actually did test on sods, but certain issues occurred.

Edit: Oops misread.

[Toaster]

So let me see if I've got this right.  A low skill person would get punished harsher for trying hard things, correct?  What about a high skill person trying an easy thing?  If Lars with his +2 Con tried to shoot a person standing still 15 feet away, could he still miss that?  Would there ever be a situation where a high skill person trying something easy would just simply not be rolled?

Would you look at the bonus level or just a straight numerical value (IE give credence to "partial" skill values?  Lars has 10 in con because I screwed up adding- would that be better considered than someone with 9?)

Let's say for example someone is trying the shot I took here:

By the time you make it through the door, the robot overlords have basically slaughtered all the aggressive sods, but there are two more, who are currently sprinting away from everyone. You decide to take aim at them.
[Con:3+2]
You fire twice, putting a round into the back of each of their heads. Clean. Efficient. No doubt divine intervention.

So a shot at medium range at moving targets; not the easiest shot.  Does this chart sound about right?

Code: [Select]

Skill +0 +2

Roll
1 Drop gun and shoot self in foot. Shoot whole clip into nothing.
2 Miss both shots. Couldn't get a clean shot- no ammo spent
3 Hit one in the arm, but he's still up One in the leg; he's down
4 One in chest, one in leg; 1st is up Both in the chest and down
5 Both dead Both dead
6 Both dead, as well as a civvie Both dead, all ammo spent

[Nikitian]

I see that I'm probably going to be a minority here, so I better be vocal

*Dice system explanation snip*

Opinions?

I am not so happy with this idea. Partly because I've statted the character based on anticipating the strengths of the old system (not to the hilt as with minmaxing, though), but mostly because it's such a major overhaul, re-shaping the whole feel of the game system, and, by extension, the whole game. Even the dreaded "straight bonus;dynamic bonus;straight bonus; dynamic bonus; ..." alternative progression, discussed earlier, is perhaps, less of a problem overall, as it would remain mostly in the same field of game mechanics.
The way you suggest it, I'm afraid, you change the underlying mechanics of the game ground-shatteringly. See, you've conditioned us to see ERverse bonuses and penalties in terms of roll bonuses and penalties of discrete, integer nature. Removing those would not only signify the return of the dreaded [1], but also remove the already ingrained understanding of skill/attribute bonuses, as those would no longer be quantifiable. Math minmaxers' unhappiness aside, that would lead to players having much less understanding what different 'levels' of skill represent and would/would not allow them to do.
Furthermore, there goes the already mentioned problem of 'can I do it?'. You see, under the old/current system, the answer most of the time is 'Yes, roll to skill'/'No, that is literally pretty much impossible' with a sparse sprinkling of 'You go amp/manip overload, boom!'. Anyone, even without any skill and bonuses, had at least 1/6th chance of doing things perfectly (as demonstrated by Maurice's painting gallery). Now, the proposed system is much more reasonable and realistic (a funny notion for ER!.. once upon a time), but the way I see it, with 'levels' of skill tacitly used in every instance of rolling, such feats would become sole purview of dedicated professionals. Which, I guess, could be seen as okay, but this would be a whole different game system.
Of course, we probably wouldn't know any better with the current trend of hiding rolls - which I also find somewhat dislikeable, if only for the reason that the very timely exceptional (both good and bad) rolls of the old were fun to read. You not only wondered how things went so utterly right/wrong, you also got to contemplate the nature of rolls (you know, I dread rolling Meditech with Maurice these days - there would be no input to contemplate the roll result in-character!). While very understandable with 'against mindfuck' rolls, and perhaps somewhat useful psychologically-wise for 'perception' rolls, I lament the current general trend. It is against the spirit of the old ER.

And finally, the preparation dynamic bonus system. Honestly, I loathe it so much. It might have been more understandable to have dyn-bonus from equipment (specialised for specific actions or handwaved wide-applied replacing the niche of decomps), or from stats, or otherwise, but currently you get it for inacting. This is terrible because its very existence implies that everyone better use it if they want to do fine actions, yet makes one sacrifice a whole turn to get so (and, believe me, from the certain M17 experience I can now tell that a turn wasted is perhaps the largest atrocity there possible). With all other bonuses gone, it would make it nigh-required to do things, and it would exaggerate its problems even more. And finally, if you wanted to go with 'preparation' theme, you could always specify to having particular equipment on hand/having done logically consistent things beforehand - all of which should take time, yes, but not turns. Sometimes a turn is a very lengthy period of time, ranging from hours to days of timeskip, and it would only be natural that anyone would have enough time on hand to do things in 'prepared' manner; and sometimes, like with the recent on-ship extra turn to escape the explosion, or during gunfights, turn might consist of mere seconds. Would anyone be able to 'prepare' for anything lengthy during that time? No, but the game mechanic allows it. ((And the same reason goes agains the Raduga/Spektr build-up/cooldown measured in turns, by the way - the very reason I opposed it so fiercely.)) One might add that a dynamic bonus would also be against the spirit of the proposed 'Pure d6 rolls!' mechanics, but heck if I understand that spirit enough to argue anything in its support.

So I conclude: yes, doable, and probably more realistic than what we currently have, but it'd be no old ER anymore, however little of that we still keep alive. Which might or might not affect the overall positive game experience and playerbase.

My guess is that she's a human/synthflesh titan mixture.
<snip>
Of course, that's wild mass guessing.  She could just be a hybrid with the space magic god thingy that we're building a home for on Heph.  Space magic is relatively common, but the part we have in the SMF is the specific part that's never seen.  Or she could be a hybrid with something else.

Well, I like that wild mass guessing, but I am mostly with the idea she's a human/space-cthulhu-in-the-box hybrid - or that's how I'd do it, were I mad-sciencing it. Just having every single cell in your body as a tiny amp would make you a true amp demigod(dess) like she appears to be. Of course, that would be an incredibly lethal experiment, but out of the nine only she, it seems, have survived and mastered the powers and not gone mad?(speculation)

[Lenglon]

Nik, you're arguing in favor of the chaos factor of the old ER rolls.

the main complaints against the old ER system is that for high level players, the chaos factor has been removed. making it illogical/stupid for a new player to try to do anything because they risk teamkilling and instead they should just wait and let their higher-stats seniors do it for them.

you're saying that stupid actions are more fun with the current ER rolls system.
the complaint against the current ER rolls system is that stupid actions are stupid.

when was the last time you made an unmodified (no bonus or +1 only, no dynamic bonus) skill roll using something that could kill a teammate?
when was the last time any senior player did one of those? at all?

you might have a point, but nobody DOES the things you're saying is more fun in the current system, because doing them is stupid.

[syvarris]

Hmm i remember that we wanted to use sods back when gwg was still sciencing it and they were deemed too valuable at the time.

Yeah.  Back then I opposed it strongly because flesh sods were extremely expensive.  At first, for the cost of fifty flesh sods, we could get five hundred robosods.  That was nerfed, but it factored strongly into my decision making then.

Plus, overall we didn't have many sods.  After all, by the time the first shipment left to the sword, we only sent five hundred robosods and fifty flesh sods.  If we had experimented on the flesh sods, that would have cut into our forces a good bit.

Now, we're producing four hundred and fifty flesh sods per month, and eighteen hundred robosods per month.  Losing fifty flesh sods isn't a big loss.

\
My memory is rather hazy, but I think they actually did test on sods, but certain issues occurred.

Edit: Yep, the sods exploded, as did the literal lab rats. Seems that the pills also like free range human brains or something.

hmm how should I put this...

Your test subjects explode. All of them. Like, POP, fuzzy blood filled balloons that have been overfilled. All of them. Without exception. Hmm. Perhaps they can't handle the pills?

All the animals you try produce exactly one result and it isn't a good one.

I wonder if you could create a pill with no real effects and then vaporize it as some sort of anti-sod gas...

You really should read the full quote.  GWG hadn't used flesh sods, for the above mentioned reasons.  He only used the rodent ant... things.  As yet, we haven't seen any evidence that a sod would have any different effect from a human, although it would be the first thing to test.

@Nik (Not quoting that O.O)

First... Uhh, maybe try to use more formatting next time?  Like bullet points, indenting, even just a few more line breaks?  It's kinda difficult to read that block.

Second, I agree with you on most points, but in general I think those changes are for the better.  My primary sticking point is whether or not dice roll results will be consistent compared to the action performed, with the level of skill applied.

Third, what would the explanations for the hints be if she were a space cthulu hybrid?   What player would have those powers available to them?  What part of her is something that we never see, and is from something common?

[piecewise]

How would it affect a versus roll? Seeing as Speech versus Willpower can persuade people to do certain things, how would the new system run it if say both people rolled the same number but one had higher in the relevant stat?

Depends on if it's vs person or NPC

So let me see if I've got this right.  A low skill person would get punished harsher for trying hard things, correct?  What about a high skill person trying an easy thing?  If Lars with his +2 Con tried to shoot a person standing still 15 feet away, could he still miss that?  Would there ever be a situation where a high skill person trying something easy would just simply not be rolled?

Would you look at the bonus level or just a straight numerical value (IE give credence to "partial" skill values?  Lars has 10 in con because I screwed up adding- would that be better considered than someone with 9?)

Let's say for example someone is trying the shot I took here:

By the time you make it through the door, the robot overlords have basically slaughtered all the aggressive sods, but there are two more, who are currently sprinting away from everyone. You decide to take aim at them.
[Con:3+2]
You fire twice, putting a round into the back of each of their heads. Clean. Efficient. No doubt divine intervention.

So a shot at medium range at moving targets; not the easiest shot.  Does this chart sound about right?

Code: [Select]

Skill +0 +2

Roll
1 Drop gun and shoot self in foot. Shoot whole clip into nothing.
2 Miss both shots. Couldn't get a clean shot- no ammo spent
3 Hit one in the arm, but he's still up One in the leg; he's down
4 One in chest, one in leg; 1st is up Both in the chest and down
5 Both dead Both dead
6 Both dead, as well as a civvie Both dead, all ammo spent

He probably wouldn't completely miss except on a botch. But he might hit different parts or with different severity.

Something like that, yeah.

I see that I'm probably going to be a minority here, so I better be vocal

*Dice system explanation snip*

Opinions?

I am not so happy with this idea. Partly because I've statted the character based on anticipating the strengths of the old system (not to the hilt as with minmaxing, though), but mostly because it's such a major overhaul, re-shaping the whole feel of the game system, and, by extension, the whole game. Even the dreaded "straight bonus;dynamic bonus;straight bonus; dynamic bonus; ..." alternative progression, discussed earlier, is perhaps, less of a problem overall, as it would remain mostly in the same field of game mechanics.
The way you suggest it, I'm afraid, you change the underlying mechanics of the game ground-shatteringly. See, you've conditioned us to see ERverse bonuses and penalties in terms of roll bonuses and penalties of discrete, integer nature. Removing those would not only signify the return of the dreaded [1], but also remove the already ingrained understanding of skill/attribute bonuses, as those would no longer be quantifiable. Math minmaxers' unhappiness aside, that would lead to players having much less understanding what different 'levels' of skill represent and would/would not allow them to do.
Furthermore, there goes the already mentioned problem of 'can I do it?'. You see, under the old/current system, the answer most of the time is 'Yes, roll to skill'/'No, that is literally pretty much impossible' with a sparse sprinkling of 'You go amp/manip overload, boom!'. Anyone, even without any skill and bonuses, had at least 1/6th chance of doing things perfectly (as demonstrated by Maurice's painting gallery). Now, the proposed system is much more reasonable and realistic (a funny notion for ER!.. once upon a time), but the way I see it, with 'levels' of skill tacitly used in every instance of rolling, such feats would become sole purview of dedicated professionals. Which, I guess, could be seen as okay, but this would be a whole different game system.
Of course, we probably wouldn't know any better with the current trend of hiding rolls - which I also find somewhat dislikeable, if only for the reason that the very timely exceptional (both good and bad) rolls of the old were fun to read. You not only wondered how things went so utterly right/wrong, you also got to contemplate the nature of rolls (you know, I dread rolling Meditech with Maurice these days - there would be no input to contemplate the roll result in-character!). While very understandable with 'against mindfuck' rolls, and perhaps somewhat useful psychologically-wise for 'perception' rolls, I lament the current general trend. It is against the spirit of the old ER.

And finally, the preparation dynamic bonus system. Honestly, I loathe it so much. It might have been more understandable to have dyn-bonus from equipment (specialised for specific actions or handwaved wide-applied replacing the niche of decomps), or from stats, or otherwise, but currently you get it for inacting. This is terrible because its very existence implies that everyone better use it if they want to do fine actions, yet makes one sacrifice a whole turn to get so (and, believe me, from the certain M17 experience I can now tell that a turn wasted is perhaps the largest atrocity there possible). With all other bonuses gone, it would make it nigh-required to do things, and it would exaggerate its problems even more. And finally, if you wanted to go with 'preparation' theme, you could always specify to having particular equipment on hand/having done logically consistent things beforehand - all of which should take time, yes, but not turns. Sometimes a turn is a very lengthy period of time, ranging from hours to days of timeskip, and it would only be natural that anyone would have enough time on hand to do things in 'prepared' manner; and sometimes, like with the recent on-ship extra turn to escape the explosion, or during gunfights, turn might consist of mere seconds. Would anyone be able to 'prepare' for anything lengthy during that time? No, but the game mechanic allows it. ((And the same reason goes agains the Raduga/Spektr build-up/cooldown measured in turns, by the way - the very reason I opposed it so fiercely.)) One might add that a dynamic bonus would also be against the spirit of the proposed 'Pure d6 rolls!' mechanics, but heck if I understand that spirit enough to argue anything in its support.

So I conclude: yes, doable, and probably more realistic than what we currently have, but it'd be no old ER anymore, however little of that we still keep alive. Which might or might not affect the overall positive game experience and playerbase.

My guess is that she's a human/synthflesh titan mixture.
<snip>
Of course, that's wild mass guessing.  She could just be a hybrid with the space magic god thingy that we're building a home for on Heph.  Space magic is relatively common, but the part we have in the SMF is the specific part that's never seen.  Or she could be a hybrid with something else.

Well, I like that wild mass guessing, but I am mostly with the idea she's a human/space-cthulhu-in-the-box hybrid - or that's how I'd do it, were I mad-sciencing it. Just having every single cell in your body as a tiny amp would make you a true amp demigod(dess) like she appears to be. Of course, that would be an incredibly lethal experiment, but out of the nine only she, it seems, have survived and mastered the powers and not gone mad?(speculation)

So no for dynamic bonuses then

Anyways, it's a valid fear. Especially the "Can I do it?" question.

And I can unhide exceptional rolls if you'd like. ones and sixes and such.

What I think we'd have to do is probably create a graph or chart or something telling you what the +1's generally mean, what they open up to you, etc. That way we can let people know their own limitations as well as the possible side effects of failure, to make sure my reactions are consistent, as sy said.

[Kriellya]

I'm in favor as well. We should begin immediate testing and continue discussion.

Just to lay this out, the basic idea is that + bonuses would not adjust odds, just outcomes. Would this work on a sort of in-the-moment tiering system?

By which I mean, we have tiers of actions, and the bonus affects how where you are in this system. The further up something is, the more you screw it up when things go wrong, and something way up the chart could be beyond your capability. The further down, the less you can mess it up. (perhaps to the point that someone at +3 could automatically complete anything in the +0 tier)

So, to take medical as a brief example...

+0: basic bandaging, stopping minor bleeding, moving someone with minor injuries

+1: Splints, bone setting, stopping major bleeds, hospital surgery

+2: Field surgery, limb reattachment, cauterization

+3: Medical Research

+??: The Doctor

So, at +0, we wouldn't, say, see someone get mummified because they have a small abrasion, but trying field surgery would result in a horrible, splattery death on a 1 or 6.
And at +2 or +3, basic procedures would basically never fail catastrophically, and failed rolls in field surgery would result in complications rather than an outright failure.

Also, for the record, this is just a toy example to get an idea of how the concept will work. I wouldn't expect or want PW to actually *make* a chart like this, I'd rather he just make things up on the fly. This also allows him to use the + modifier as a difficulty check: maybe when you're 'safe' behind cover, you can flawlessly move someone around. But rush to get someone *into* cover under fire, and the penalty for failure is going to increase.


Oh look, a chart, just after PW said something about a chart

[Empiricist]

How would it affect a versus roll? Seeing as Speech versus Willpower can persuade people to do certain things, how would the new system run it if say both people rolled the same number but one had higher in the relevant stat?

Depends on if it's vs person or NPC

Versus NPC, seeing as that's probably more useful to players.