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Author Topic: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread  (Read 311163 times)

GlyphGryph

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #4065 on: March 31, 2014, 09:37:55 am »

Their current army is made of 70% conscripts doing their military service.

I meant why would they need to conscript now, as in, dont they already have enough, not if they conscript at all.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #4066 on: March 31, 2014, 09:46:29 am »

Quote
Why not make local languges oficcial ones in subjects of our federation I cannot see
Nope, same means same. Moscow, Vladivostok or Kaliningrad, doesn't matter. 50 official languages. Same rights, please

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but why change our form of ruling from federation to confedration?
I don't actually know what is the difference. Explain, someone?

I must say that in my opinion Russia is a federation only by name. It is a typical centralized unitary country
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Comrade P.

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #4067 on: March 31, 2014, 10:05:18 am »


I must say that in my opinion Russia is a federation only by name. It is a typical centralized unitary country


I can't actually argue about it due to the fact I don't know much how well local governments work, but I suspect the more distant from Moscow they are, the more complicated it becomes to maintain regions. However, as far as I know from talks of my relatives, they generally manage with running states of federation, so federation looks kinda justified to me.

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Why not make local languges oficcial ones in subjects of our federation I cannot see
Nope, same means same. Moscow, Vladivostok or Kaliningrad, doesn't matter. 50 official languages. Same rights, please

Meh. Sounds odd because makes no sense. Alright, that was a fine trolling brought by Ukrainian government.
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Sigs

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Owlbread

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #4068 on: March 31, 2014, 10:08:29 am »

Russia is a Unitary state with a variety of autonomous areas that all pretty much function the same way. It is exactly like Ukraine except Crimea had more autonomy in Ukraine than an ethnic Republic in Russia.

There is no real "federal autonomy" to speak of since Putin's government made the regional Presidencies Kremlin-appointed positions, effectively abolishing those elections. It's about as much a "Federation" as North Korea is Democratic.

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A third system, the unitary government, shifts the balance even further. Here, local governments only exist for convenience. They may issue licenses and permits on behalf of the national government, but they have little or no independent authority except over very local issues, like parking rules and noise ordinances. Moreover, any authority that is given to these regional governments is granted, not inherent. That means that the national government delegates the power to the regions, but all actions are taken in the name of the national government, and the national government can override any decision by a regional government at any time.

Tell me why that isn't a description of the Russian system.

Meh. Sounds odd because makes no sense. Alright, that was a fine trolling brought by Ukrainian government.

Now do you see the Crimean government's demands in a different light?
« Last Edit: March 31, 2014, 10:14:34 am by Owlbread »
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Comrade P.

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #4069 on: March 31, 2014, 10:15:33 am »

Wait, didn't Crimea got Ukrinian, Crimean-Tatar and Russian it's official or there are demands I am not aware of?
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Sigs

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Owlbread

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #4070 on: March 31, 2014, 10:17:52 am »

Wait, didn't Crimea got Ukrinian, Crimean-Tatar and Russian it's official or there are demands I am not aware of?

There is a general demand among the pro-Russian elements in Ukraine to make Russian a second official language of Ukraine, as it is in Belarus. That is the preference of the Russian Federation also.

The pro-Russians also want to ensure that they never have to use Ukrainian because they think it's an ugly peasant language, so they were angry when the regional language law, which allowed them to do exactly that, was removed. That sparked off most of this crisis.

I would also like to say that the legislation claiming Crimean Tatar and Ukrainian are official languages in Crimea is not worth the paper it is written on.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2014, 10:22:03 am by Owlbread »
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #4071 on: March 31, 2014, 10:21:42 am »

Quote from: Comrade P.
they generally manage with running states of federation, so federation looks kinda justified to me.
Can you say in what region people may say "Hey you, big guy from Moscow. We passed a local law XXX and you with all your central government can't change that?" 
Without that it isn't a federation

Quote from: Owlbeard
It's about as much a "Federation" as North Korea is Democratic.
I find it amusing that Ukraine is called a unitary state in our constitution but de facto is a federation. Well I hope that when we'll return Crimea we will either remove all it's autonomy or change constitution. Because right now that is nonsense

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #4072 on: March 31, 2014, 10:23:27 am »

Wait, didn't Crimea got Ukrinian, Crimean-Tatar and Russian it's official or there are demands I am not aware of?

There is a general demand among the pro-Russian elements in Ukraine to make Russian a second official language of Ukraine, as it is in Belarus. That is the preference of the Russian Federation also.

A-ah. Well, it might be not a reasonable thing to do. But as far as I heard the main question was around learning russian at schools. Like, russian minorities in western parts felt that their right to speak Russian is harrased.

Well I hope that when we'll return Crimea we will either remove all it's autonomy or change constitution. Because right now that is nonsense
Keep hoping.
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Owlbread

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #4073 on: March 31, 2014, 10:34:01 am »

Quote from: Comrade P.
they generally manage with running states of federation, so federation looks kinda justified to me.
Can you say in what region people may say "Hey you, big guy from Moscow. We passed a local law XXX and you with all your central government can't change that?" 
Without that it isn't a federation

This. The UK right now runs a more federal system than the Russian Federation.

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I find it amusing that Ukraine is called a unitary state in our constitution but de facto is a federation. Well I hope that when we'll return Crimea we will either remove all it's autonomy or change constitution. Because right now that is nonsense

My only real preference in this situation is for Crimea to become an independent Tatar state. I'm not asking for ethnic cleansing, just allowing for the Tatars to return home because if they did that they would outnumber the Russians naturally.

What happens within Ukraine itself, whether they use a Federal model or greater power to the Oblasts I don't know. That is a matter for the Ukrainian people to resolve themselves.

A-ah. Well, it might be not a reasonable thing to do. But as far as I heard the main question was around learning russian at schools. Like, russian minorities in western parts felt that their right to speak Russian is harrased.

The trouble was that the Ukrainian governments were trying to reverse the damage caused by the dominance of the Russian language, so they started implementing fairly draconian measures like banning stuff. I'm not such a big fan of those, they were heavy handed and didn't do much good.

That said, Russian kids in Western Ukraine learning in Ukrainian state schools should be in a learning environment that uses the native language of the area. They should be allowed to learn Russian of course, all Ukrainians should, but the language of the classrooms should be Ukrainian.

I don't see the problem in setting up Russian-language schools though if the Russophone minority community wishes. They could allow Russian students to learn in a Russian environment with the legal requirement that they are also fluent and literate in Ukrainian by the time they leave. I would take the same approach regarding Crimea.

You may say that such systems promote segregation or something (people make the same arguments against the Catholic schools in Scotland) but that is exactly what the Russian activists want, or a system where Russian can be dominant. They never want to use Ukrainian.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2014, 10:44:56 am by Owlbread »
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #4074 on: March 31, 2014, 10:57:06 am »

Wait, didn't Crimea got Ukrinian, Crimean-Tatar and Russian it's official or there are demands I am not aware of?
The pro-Russians also want to ensure that they never have to use Ukrainian because they think it's an ugly peasant language, so they were angry when the regional language law, which allowed them to do exactly that, was removed. That sparked off most of this crisis.
Yes, they dislike a duty to use Ukrainian in some situation. Before that law (BTW, MP who wrote that law is Crimean and recently took Russian citizenship) all governmental officials had a duty to use only Ukrainian in working time. Same goes for all official documentation.  That law allowed to use regional language if at least 10% of Population speak different language (Russian qualifies everywhere)  but even under this law central government (President, ministers, MPs) must use only Ukrainian doing otherwise is illegal... But there are no punishment for breaking that law :D So, it is actively ignored.


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My only real preference in this situation is for Crimea to become an independent Tatar state. I'm not asking for ethnic cleansing, just allowing for the Tatars to return home because if they did that they would outnumber the Russians naturally.
I am a big fan of "voluntary ethnic cleansing" By that I mean resettlement with a proper compensation and only if person is willing. That + Invitation of Crimean Tatars from Turkey may allow Tatars to become a majority real fast. If not in the whole Crimea then in the southern part of it.

And let's not forget that when Ukraine will get back Crimea many of those ho take Russian passports will not get Ukrainian back. Foreign residents don't vote.


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I don't see the problem in setting up Russian-language schools though if the Russophone minority community wishes.
Schools are a problem only in Russian propaganda
For example there are 5 Russian Language schools in Lviv alone.


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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Sheb

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #4075 on: March 31, 2014, 11:20:17 am »

Owlbread, how do you reconcile your "civic nationalism" in Scotland (People living there should vote no matter where from, "ethnic Scots" anywhere not), with your position on Crimea (Tatars get right because their ancestors lived there a while ago, the Russians can go and sod themselves.)?
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Owlbread

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #4076 on: March 31, 2014, 11:36:12 am »

Owlbread, how do you reconcile your "civic nationalism" in Scotland (People living there should vote no matter where from, "ethnic Scots" anywhere not), with your position on Crimea (Tatars get right because their ancestors lived there a while ago, the Russians can go and sod themselves.)?

I've thought about this a lot recently and I'm not sure if I've got it right yet. I feel like I'm concentrating on ethnicity way too much.

The fact that there are Tatars scattered all over the world, either the children of the deported or even the very elderly deported themselves still alive today, unable to return to their homes, makes this a somewhat unusual situation, quite unlike the situation in Scotland. I know I have made arguments against the concept of Scots abroad being able to vote on independence on the grounds that they choose not to live in this country but that's the key; they have the choice. The Tatars do not. If they can actually afford to move back, they live in ghettos.

Under the current set up with the Russian majority Crimea will never be an independent state. Even though they are more Soviet than anything else the pro-Russians will never consider something like an independent Crimea. If Crimea is forced to allow the Tatars to return, that would not create an ethnically homogenous Tatar state. They would instead form a small majority with a very substantial Russian minority. I think the Russian minority in that situation would integrate more easily into an independent civic "Crimean" mindset than if they were a subject of the Russian federation. They already have that, hence all the waving of Crimean flags over the last few months - it just needs to be encouraged to develop into a sense of "national" as opposed to regional identity.

I would imagine that an independent Crimean Tatar state would speak Russian as a lingua franca anyway in the same way that Chechnya spoke Russian during its de facto independence, despite having next to no Russians in the country. Chechen Mujahideen would be praising Allah one minute then calling their friend a "molodyets" the next.

The Russians in Crimea have every right to live there, even if they are in many cases literally living in a Tatar's stolen house. They are Crimeans for better or worse, just as English people in Scotland are Scottish for better or worse. Their rights as a minority should be respected. You know, if a Russian in Crimea decided to call himself a Tatar and started speaking Tatar I would consider him to be a Tatar. This has nothing to do with blood, for me.

To put it simply, there are other forces at work here that make this situation more complicated than it should be, meaning my usual idea of Civic Nationalism doesn't really work. I think though it is the answer to the Ukrainian problem as a whole; you will notice that I have almost never called the Russophone Ukrainians "Russians". They are Ukrainians just like anyone else, they just speak a different language.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2014, 11:50:52 am by Owlbread »
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scrdest

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #4077 on: March 31, 2014, 11:41:52 am »

I don't see Russia banging its own sisters though. Also who would be Seth in this relationship?

Poland? Central, not Eastern Slavic, though. Belarus?
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #4078 on: March 31, 2014, 11:57:42 am »

To continue on persecution of Russian language in Ukraine
As far as I know there are such pro-Ukrainian measures

a) Government members and police officers must use Ukrainian while at work. As I said it is not enforced. And demanding that from police is dangerous for your health. Tested by a friend of mine
b) Central TV and radio channels must have 50% of Ukrainian content. That is circumvented either by taking some crapshow produced in Russia and putting goggle-translated subtitles below or showing undesirable stuff at night
c) All advertisements must be in Ukrainian. Mostly the only thing that works. Especially among small children
d) Cinemas are forced to show all films either in original sound subtitled in Ukrainian or dubbed in Ukrainian. To be honest that is an economical protectionism to force cinema owners to spend money on dubbing in Ukraine not caring about the language

And... I think that is all.


Quote from: Owlbread
Under the current set up with the Russian majority Crimea will never be an independent state. Even though they are more Soviet than anything else the pro-Russians will never consider something like an independent Crimea. If Crimea is forced to allow the Tatars to return, that would not create an ethnically homogenous Tatar state. They would instead form a small majority with a very substantial Russian minority. I think the Russian minority in that situation would integrate more easily into an independent civic "Crimean" mindset than if they were a subject of the Russian federation. They already have that, hence all the waving of Crimean flags over the last few months - it just needs to be encouraged to develop into a sense of "national" as opposed to regional identity.

Sorry... But you are wrong.  People don't move from richer country to poorer country often. Uzbekistan. I think the ones who wanted to return returned already. And even if all of them will return that's like 150 000. Not gonna change the situation much. 
Turkey... Whatever you do not that many  Crimean Tatars will move from Turkey. Turkish Crimean Tatars are very assimilated.... I am afraid that most of them are Turks of Crimean Ancestry.

What will change the situation:Crimean Tatar birth rate. But that needs time and lack of new Ethnic cleansings
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Knit tie

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #4079 on: March 31, 2014, 12:18:37 pm »

Any news on the hostilities, gentlemen?
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