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Author Topic: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread  (Read 309145 times)

Sheb

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3900 on: March 26, 2014, 06:50:09 pm »

Aren't most tourists in Crimea from Russia anyway?
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3901 on: March 26, 2014, 07:04:53 pm »

Quote from: RT.com
The backbone of Crimea’s local economy is its bustling tourist industry, which draws in 6 million visitors per year during the summer season. But currently, 70 percent of the tourists are from Ukraine, and only 25 percent from Russia. Political rifts between Russia and Ukraine could turn off tourists, with tourism expected to drop by 30 percent this year.

I think RT.com is VERY optimistic here.  Of cause Crimea may see more Russians but...
a) Tourists tend to choose calm places
b) Transportation is an issue...  Ferry has it's disadvantages, aircraft is too expensive because Crimea is valued for cheap vacations. Trains and personal cars going through Ukrainian territory will see many unpleasant moments crossing the borders.
c) Expanded Sochi infrastructure is now available
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XXSockXX

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3902 on: March 26, 2014, 07:11:20 pm »

Oh man, been too busy the last few days, so much to catch up to...

Finland is a great example that you must fight even if the war looks hopeless
From talking to German WW2 veterans who fought in Finland I got the impression that the landscape/winter combination was a huge factor for the fighting there. You can't really replicate that in other places. Also they had Mannerheim.

I think RT.com is VERY optimistic here.  Of cause Crimea may see more Russians but...
a) Tourists tend to choose calm places
b) Transportation is an issue...  Ferry has it's disadvantages, aircraft is too expensive because Crimea is valued for cheap vacations. Trains and personal cars going through Ukrainian territory will see many unpleasant moments crossing the borders.
c) Expanded Sochi infrastructure is now available
Also isn't both the Crimean water and electricity infrastructure dependent on Ukraine? If the situation gets any worse and Ukraine decides to cut these off, Russia will have to make some huge investments.
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MarcAFK

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3903 on: March 26, 2014, 07:11:36 pm »

Yeah, I would rather go holiday where I could see some of those amazing toilets they had on the news (seriously it's like all the western media cared about was that some of the facilities were shitty) than go sightseeing at coldwarland 2014.
Although if they pump the soundtrack of red October and Tom Clancy makes an undead appearance than I might be convinced on spending my holiday at the Ukrainian border.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3904 on: March 26, 2014, 07:25:09 pm »

Quote
Also isn't both the Crimean water and electricity infrastructure dependent on Ukraine? If the situation gets any worse and Ukraine decides to cut these off, Russia will have to make some huge investments.
I doubt that our government will do that. We are playing good guys. But, IIRC it was promised that they'll need to pay seven times more.

Problem here is - with whom should we sign the deals to provide electricity? Russia? Impossible, we don't recognize Crimea as Russian territory. With local company owned by an Ukrainian oligarch? It is not a fact that it will not be nationalized. If it will not... than where should taxes from that company go?
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

XXSockXX

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3905 on: March 26, 2014, 07:44:36 pm »

Quote
Also isn't both the Crimean water and electricity infrastructure dependent on Ukraine? If the situation gets any worse and Ukraine decides to cut these off, Russia will have to make some huge investments.
I doubt that our government will do that. We are playing good guys. But, IIRC it was promised that they'll need to pay seven times more.

Problem here is - with whom should we sign the deals to provide electricity? Russia? Impossible, we don't recognize Crimea as Russian territory. With local company owned by an Ukrainian oligarch? It is not a fact that it will not be nationalized. If it will not... than where should taxes from that company go?
Yeah, it's probably better to play the good guys currently, to avoid any more outright escalation.
There is a lot that has to be figured out now with legal problems and payments I guess. Mostly a problem for Ukraine right now, but it will be a problem for Russia too, with Crimea in "de facto" status, who will want to invest or do business there? Spontaneous nationalizations are not very popular with business owners.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3906 on: March 26, 2014, 07:57:07 pm »

Here are one of the first results for Crimeans

It is sad. That liners offered a nice opportunity profit for local population. It may look minor but one Western tourist who visited the port for one day may leave more money than few Ukrainians\Russians who spent several weeks there


Edit:
There are another interesting moment, under Russian law sailors and soldiers who serve abroad get higher salary. That's why some sailors even gave bribes to be transfered from Russian Baltic fleet to Black Sea fleet. I suspect some guys aren't that happy that Sevastopol is Russian under Russian laws now
BTW that means even less profit for Sevastopol, because Russian sailors spend most of their salary there
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 08:01:57 pm by Ukrainian Ranger »
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misko27

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3907 on: March 26, 2014, 08:50:40 pm »

In general, tourists do not like anything resembling a war-zone, Russian or otherwise.
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Owlbread

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3908 on: March 27, 2014, 01:31:09 am »

So I take it the entire Russian government is actually illegitimate?  Considering what happened when Gorbachev was ovethrown and Yeltsin came to power etc. Putin should step aside and allow the Communist Party to rulecagain until they xan hold free, democratic elections.
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da_nang

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3909 on: March 27, 2014, 01:44:02 am »

So your opinion of the war is that it's all fine, except for that bit where Russians died?  :o
Where did I say that?  ???
The Soviet Union staged the Mainila bombing to get casus belli. They had no justifiable reasons to go to war. They behaved just like when Nazi Germany invaded Poland. No justifiable reasons given, just guns blazing.

And to make matters worse, Finland is the one that has to pay war reparations.

Given the near-facistic goverment in Finland at the time.
Near-fascist? A lot of Finns would oppose that I'd imagine.
Quote
The early years of Finnish independence

Following the Russian Revolution, on 6 December 1917 Parliament approved the declaration of independence proposed by the Senate, which was headed by P.E. Svinhufvud. The republican constitution that was adopted in the summer of 1919 characterized Finland's parliamentary system as follows: "Sovereign power in Finland belongs to the people, who are represented by Parliament." The electoral period was originally three years.

The 1928 Parliament Act brought the 1906 Parliament Act in line with independent Finland's new circumstances. Constitutional laws pertaining to Parliament remained more or less unchanged up to the mid 1980s.

In the early days of independence, the forms of political decision-making had still to evolve. Bitter memories of the 1918 civil war cast their shadow over the period. Internal problems dating from the period of autonomy, such as the issue of land ownership in rural areas, undeveloped labour legislation and insufficient democracy in local government, were remedied.

The period was marked by great economic changes: fast growth after World War I and then the global depression in the 1930s. Like other parts of Europe, Finland experienced a wave of right-wing radicalism, but it never attracted a large following.

The moderate left quickly began to participate fully in the process of building Finnish society. In 1926 a Social Democratic minority Government was appointed, with Väinö Tanner as Prime Minister. Miina Sillanpää became Finland's first female minister in this Government.

The Agrarian Party and the Social Democratic Party entered their first coalition Government in 1937, under A. K. Cajander. The average life span of Governments before World War II was one year.
History of the Finnish Parliament

And according to Putin, the winter war was to "correct mistakes" too. Is there a list somewhere of mistakes that remain to be corrected?

Without the winter war there would not have been the continuation war, with hundreds of thousands of deaths and lots of troops tied up in the north that were needed elsewhere.
"Oh hey, uh, we forgot that to tell you the border shouldn't run through here, so, uh, we're declaring war now."
What a dick move.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 01:47:10 am by da_nang »
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Owlbread

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3910 on: March 27, 2014, 02:15:50 am »

Where did I say that?  ???
The Soviet Union staged the Mainila bombing to get casus belli. They had no justifiable reasons to go to war. They behaved just like when Nazi Germany invaded Poland. No justifiable reasons given, just guns blazing.

And to make matters worse, Finland is the one that has to pay war reparations.

I have heard Chechens make those same arguments and nobody takes them seriously.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3911 on: March 27, 2014, 02:26:36 am »

So I take it the entire Russian government is actually illegitimate?  Considering what happened when Gorbachev was ovethrown and Yeltsin came to power etc. Putin should step aside and allow the Communist Party to rulecagain until they xan hold free, democratic elections.
Can't say that communist party got power in a legitimate way. Obviously Russians should find a heir of Nikolai and restore the monarchy
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Sheb

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3912 on: March 27, 2014, 02:32:06 am »

Sorry da_nang, misunderstood you, I was pretty tired. Apparently Yeltsin's position was to apologize and declare it a war of aggression.
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scrdest

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3913 on: March 27, 2014, 02:34:34 am »

So I take it the entire Russian government is actually illegitimate?  Considering what happened when Gorbachev was ovethrown and Yeltsin came to power etc. Putin should step aside and allow the Communist Party to rulecagain until they xan hold free, democratic elections.
Can't say that communist party got power in a legitimate way. Obviously Russians should find a heir of Nikolai and restore the monarchy

A week later: Putin confirmed to be a direct descendant of the Romanovs, 116% of Russian scientists agree.
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Digital Hellhound

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3914 on: March 27, 2014, 02:56:34 am »

Finland had a near-fascist government in the Winter War? That's the first time I've heard anyone claim that. Sure, there were fascist-ish movements, but any hope of them gaining power went down with the Mäntsälä rebellion.

I'm slightly confused at the amount of Finland-talk in this thread, but I ain't sayin' I miiiind.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 02:58:52 am by Digital Hellhound »
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