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[gogis]

Uuuuuu, Owlbread, you separatist  You wanna see the world map as a patchwork blanket, don't you. Alright, I know you do.

I do. I really do. Cartographers would need buckets of paracetamol and aspirin to cope with all the headaches I'd give them.

They don't want to be free. My former classmate is hardcore Udmurt. He don't want to segregate, what I should say here? I am not really "udmurt" I just was born there. I mean all minorities is fine. I can't undertsand why you are not (or you are okay?)

Oh indeed, I don't doubt that there is no desire for independence in Udmurtia. That's a given. That's not to say these ideas couldn't awaken in the future one day, maybe even after we're all dead; once upon a time a lot of the Central Asian states would have rejected independence.

But I don't see it as segregation though, I'm sure Russians and Udmurts would be welcomed equally in an independent Udmurtia. You could even create a system like the EU allowing for freedom of movement.

I am pretty sure my ancestors is simplier than you imply. They are russians.

But can you be so sure? I'm sure they were "Russians" in much the same way that UR's were 200 years ago.

There is actually vow for independence in Udmurtia. Small %. Democracy. Like everywhere else. I am against, I can vote there btw.

There is no segregation, oh fuck what we talking about? Ukraine? SAME SHIT, RUSSIA

[Ukrainian Ranger]

But can you be so sure? I'm sure they were "Russians" in much the same way that UR's were 200 years ago.

BTW, One of my Grandfathers is a Russian by any definition of the word.   

[Owlbread]

I know very little about what's going on there, so take this with a grain of salt, but if a group doesn't want to be separate, why make them? Unless I've completely missed the point, in which case, don't listen to me.

I've spent the last 3 years trying to convince a group of people who broadly do not want to separate to separate. For the reasons I've already explained though I think the world would be better off reduced to its component nations, not the pseudo-Imperial states it has today.

That kind of people form a backbone of Soviet people. They lost their nationality but never got a new one. They may think they are Russian but if you dig up you'll see that they know very little about Russian history, Russian traditions, Russian ethics and substitute that with USSR era morals and historical myths.

At times people like that remind me of African Americans. Having had their culture, language, religion and everything that was once dear to them taken away, they're left as the by-products of an Imperial or economic machine; without a nation to truly call home. Soviet people no longer have a USSR to be loyal to, so even if they feel closer to Russia they'll never really be content again.

I watched an old woman crying tears of joy clutching a picture of Stalin at a pro-Russian rally in Crimea after the vote on TV recently. Sadly for her she'll never get Stalin again, those days are gone. No matter what federation they belong to.

[gogis]

But can you be so sure? I'm sure they were "Russians" in much the same way that UR's were 200 years ago.

BTW, One of my Grandfathers is a Russian by any definition of the word.

My grand grand mother is Ukrainian from mother side.

[gogis]

You really should stop to connect Soviets to Ukraine. It's happened alot earlier.
gasp(c)

[gogis]

Russia = Kievan Rus. Why it's even are novelty?

[Owlbread]

My grand grand mother is Ukrainian from mother side.

Gogis, you should get a DNA test. My father took one and we discovered our ancestors were conquered by the Scots in the dark ages. Very interesting stuff.

[gogis]

My grand grand mother is Ukrainian from mother side.

Gogis, you should get a DNA test. My father took one and we discovered our ancestors were conquered by the Scots in the dark ages. Very interesting stuff.

Whats your point?

[Mephansteras]

I know very little about what's going on there, so take this with a grain of salt, but if a group doesn't want to be separate, why make them? Unless I've completely missed the point, in which case, don't listen to me.

I've spent the last 3 years trying to convince a group of people who broadly do not want to separate to separate. For the reasons I've already explained though I think the world would be better off reduced to its component nations, not the pseudo-Imperial states it has today.

That kind of people form a backbone of Soviet people. They lost their nationality but never got a new one. They may think they are Russian but if you dig up you'll see that they know very little about Russian history, Russian traditions, Russian ethics and substitute that with USSR era morals and historical myths.

At times people like that remind me of African Americans. Having had their culture, language, religion and everything that was once dear to them taken away, they're left as the by-products of an Imperial or economic machine; without a nation to truly call home. Soviet people no longer have a USSR to be loyal to, so even if they feel closer to Russia they'll never really be content again.

Americans in general are kinda like this, though. Many of us have very mixed heritages, and the United States is the only thing we really have as a proper national identity anymore. For me the idea of the United States splintering is just...weird. Sure, there are regions that it could be broken up into, but it'd always feel a bit artificial. Especially since the past few generations have been extremely mobile and you have a lot less of the 'My family has lived in this town for hundreds of years' sort of thing. I mean, my own family (aunts, uncles, cousins) are scattered all across the US and I myself have lived in 4 different states covering 3 of the 4 corners of the country. I don't even properly identify with a region of the US, let alone a specific state.

I don't know if the USSR had much mobility like that, but if it did I can see how some people would find grabbing onto any single national identity to be difficult.

[gogis]

I don't know if the USSR had much mobility like that, but if it did I can see how some people would find grabbing onto any single national identity to be difficult.

They defenitely did. It's was called "Raspredelenie". You was called as a specialist in some area.

[Owlbread]

Whats your point?

Nothing, just that it might be interesting for you. You might find out that you're actually an Udmurt after all. Or who knows, maybe even a Bashkir... I remember one Russian historian I read about claimed that the Romanov dynasty were descended from Khazars. He was of course a very controversial fellow.

Americans in general are kinda like this, though. Many of us have very mixed heritages, and the United States is the only thing we really have as a proper national identity anymore. For me the idea of the United States splintering is just...weird. Sure, there are regions that it could be broken up into, but it'd always feel a bit artificial. Especially since the past few generations have been extremely mobile and you have a lot less of the 'My family has lived in this town for hundreds of years' sort of thing. I mean, my own family (aunts, uncles, cousins) are scattered all across the US and I myself have lived in 4 different states covering 3 of the 4 corners of the country. I don't even properly identify with a region of the US, let alone a specific state.

I don't know if the USSR had much mobility like that, but if it did I can see how some people would find grabbing onto any single national identity to be difficult.

I think the main difference is that the USA is a very artificial state constructed on land literally taken from the Natives. Even though there's been talk of a Republic of Lakotah, it would be very difficult for the remaining Native Americans to attempt anything like that, and most prefer to fight for their rights within the USA. Or so it seems to me.

The Russian Federation on the other hand, even though most of it is constructed on land stolen from natives just like in the USA, is explicitly a federation of entities including ethnic "Republics", almost like little statelets with "titular nationalities". That is very different from the USA where New York or Oregon wouldn't have something like a "titular nationality". There's no "State of Lakotah", for instance.

This means though that in Russia there are actually little European-Style "nations" with their own governments. Toothless, but the illusion is there.

[gogis]

Whats your point?

Nothing, just that it might be interesting for you. You might find out that you're actually an Udmurt after all. Or who knows, maybe even a Bashkir... I remember one Russian historian I read about claimed that the Romanov dynasty were descended from Khazars. He was of course a very controversial fellow.

Americans in general are kinda like this, though. Many of us have very mixed heritages, and the United States is the only thing we really have as a proper national identity anymore. For me the idea of the United States splintering is just...weird. Sure, there are regions that it could be broken up into, but it'd always feel a bit artificial. Especially since the past few generations have been extremely mobile and you have a lot less of the 'My family has lived in this town for hundreds of years' sort of thing. I mean, my own family (aunts, uncles, cousins) are scattered all across the US and I myself have lived in 4 different states covering 3 of the 4 corners of the country. I don't even properly identify with a region of the US, let alone a specific state.

I don't know if the USSR had much mobility like that, but if it did I can see how some people would find grabbing onto any single national identity to be difficult.

I think the main difference is that the USA is a very artificial state constructed on land literally taken from the Natives. Even though there's been talk of a Republic of Lakotah, it would be very difficult for the remaining Native Americans to attempt anything like that, and most prefer to fight for their rights within the USA. Or so it seems to me.

The Russian Federation on the other hand is explicitly a federation of entities including ethnic "Republics", almost like little statelets with "titular nationalities". That is very different from the USA where New York or Oregon wouldn't have something like a "titular nationality". There's no "State of Lakotah", for instance.

"On the other hand" is exactly is a term. I am surprised, wtf you want here? I am proud to be russian.

[Owlbread]

Gogis, I am sure you are. I know many Scots that are proud to be British. As I have already explained though my political ideology is such that I think the world would be best reduced to its component nations in order to create peace and stability.

By the way, я понимаю немного русского языка и я могу использовать "Google Translate". Если вам трудно говорить по-английски, писать на русском, и мы можем перевести.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Russia = Kievan Rus. Why it's even are novelty?

Lies. Modern Russia is what was a colony of Kievan Rus (read ancient Ukraine) Colony becoming more powerful than former dominion is not unique. But somehow USA doesn't try to annex it's historical city of London. Brazil doesn't want Lisbon either. And all that Spanish speaking South and Central American nations do not unite in one country despite having one language

Russia claiming that Vladymir the Great is a part of  Russian History is exactly the same level of nonsense as if USA would claim that William the Conquer is a part of American history

[Comrade P.]

Gogis, I am sure you are. I know many Scots that are proud to be British. As I have already explained though my political ideology is such that I think the world would be best reduced to its component nations in order to create peace and stability.

I think that the main point where I disagree with you is that maximum segregation creates stability and peace. Without any mean forces to control'em, small national states are about to conflict each other due to the competitive part of human's nature. Like, in order to show who is the boss.