Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Before people start tearing Beznogim to shreds, I want to say that I'm curious: how would Great Britain, France or any European country react to a similar situation Russia ended up in before the Caucasian War with mountain people constantly causing trouble on their borders?

... The only reason those 'mountain people' caused trouble is because of Russia occupying and destroying their lands. Occupying lands, being outright hostile to 'mountain people' and even not allowing them to represent themselves may build up resentment in local populations and lead to insurgency. Go figure.

[Sean Mirrsen]

No, the attitude is really dependent on person's initial behavior. If that Caucasian doesn't assault you and acts like a normal, civilized person, then he is treated like a normal person. If the person behaves like a subhuman monkey, then he is a subhuman monkey.

If that would be an American racist he would say something like:

"No, the attitude is really dependent on person's initial behavior. If that Black doesn't assault you and acts like a normal, civilized person, then he is treated like a normal person. If the person behaves like a subhuman monkey, then he is a subhuman monkey."

Racists don't seem to understand that calling a person something like n***r or monkey for his behavior is unacceptable even if that person does act badly in a way the racist dislike

Since when is it unacceptable to insult someone for their unacceptable behavior, regardless of any other variables? Russians (or Russia as a whole) get a whole lot of things being said at them for the events in Crimea.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Before people start tearing Beznogim to shreds, I want to say that I'm curious: how would Great Britain, France or any European country react to a similar situation Russia ended up in before the Caucasian War with mountain people constantly causing trouble on their borders?

... The only reason those 'mountain people' caused trouble is because of Russia occupying and destroying their lands. Occupying lands, being outright hostile to 'mountain people' and even not allowing them to represent themselves may build up resentment in local populations and lead to insurgency. Go figure.

Mountain people tend to create serious problems for invaders. Be it Scotland, Montenegro, Afghanistan, Western Ukraine, Caucasus.... And all of them  were called dirty cruel savagers and bandits who doesn't know how to work

Since when is it unacceptable to insult someone for their unacceptable behavior, regardless of any other variables? Russians (or Russia as a whole) get a whole lot of things being said at them for the events in Crimea.

While discussion in this thread is rather heated I don't remember anti-Russian racism. At least large scale one

[Sean Mirrsen]

Since when is it unacceptable to insult someone for their unacceptable behavior, regardless of any other variables? Russians (or Russia as a whole) get a whole lot of things being said at them for the events in Crimea.

While discussion in this thread is rather heated I don't remember anti-Russian racist. At least large scale one

I didn't say "racist". Does a person have to be of any specific ethnicity, or fall under any other easily applicable label, in order to be eligible for verbal assault in response to unacceptable actions? That's what I meant, re: this:

Racists don't seem to understand that calling a person something like n***r or monkey for his behavior is unacceptable even if that person does act badly in a way the racist dislike

The labels just make the assault easier to carry out, and more/less effective.

[misko27]

Yep, entered thread, still arguing, and still about race. Why even bother having a thread if it does nothing but provoke people? I mean I want Russia-Ukraine to have it's own thread a lot, but this thread is not that. If you guys are going to continue on this train-of-thought, this thread will end up locked, and frankly it will not be missed.

On what I hope is a new subject, no Russia doesn't have a land bridge into Crimea. And saying there will be one doesn't count, it doesn't exist until it does. So until then Crimea is dependent on Ukraine for supplies, unless Russia wants to import it by sea, but that won't work on their most dependent substances, Water and Electricity, of which they get 80% from Ukraine. And, should Ukraine suddenly wish to change that relationship, Russia will need negotiate with people they do not recognize. This is quite possibly related to the reported seizure of a gas plant near the Crimean border

[Guardian G.I.]

Yep, entered thread, still arguing, and still about race. Why even bother having a thread if it does nothing but provoke people? I mean I want Russia-Ukraine to have it's own thread a lot, but this thread is not that. If you guys are going to continue on this train-of-thought, this thread will end up locked, and frankly it will not be missed.

In the grim darkness of any political and historical dispute about Russia, there is only war.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

Not only Not to mention, you're assuming Russia's motives are /actually/ aligned with 'protecting ethnic russians'.

I am honestly rather amused by this. Russia can't even have an honestly morally sound basis for its actions without it seeming like a coverup for something anymore. Not claiming it's true, just observing - if Russia did have the interests of ethnic Russians abroad in mind first and foremost, it would still get the same treatment, because 'obviously they can't be doing that just for the people'.

So, you're saying "Not that what you say isn't true, but you'd be saying that even if it weren't"?
That assertion's uh, it's kind of unfounded.
 
Meanwhile, the gravest 'threat' to crim-russians was the language law that was vetoed.

Also, would like to point out: your leader dude, good old Vlad, is /still/ telling everyone, personally, that the Russian troops in Crimea aren't Russian troops but 'local self-defense militias'. Forgive us for doubting him. 

[Comrade P.]

Yep, entered thread, still arguing, and still about race. Why even bother having a thread if it does nothing but provoke people? I mean I want Russia-Ukraine to have it's own thread a lot, but this thread is not that. If you guys are going to continue on this train-of-thought, this thread will end up locked, and frankly it will not be missed.

In the grim darkness of any political and historical dispute about Russia, there is only war.

I'd add that there is only one war. We all know which one - whatever we discuss, we come up to one and the same war.

[Darvi]

The War on Christmas?

[Comrade P.]

The War on Christmas?

Yes, yes. With two mustache-wearing guys one of whom stands for bearded man's thoughts and another wishing to get all the presents.

[misko27]

The War on Christmas?

Oh sure, many here are veterans of the Christmas wars; some even participated in the Bombardment of News Corp Headquarters.

[Owlbread]

Spoiler: In response to Beznogim. (click to show/hide)

No, the attitude is really dependent on person's initial behavior. If that Caucasian doesn't assault you and acts like a normal, civilized person, then he is treated like a normal person. If the person behaves like a subhuman monkey, then he is a subhuman monkey.

This is the exact same argument used by racists in the USA and other parts of the West, often on websites like 4chan, where they make a distinction between "n*ggers" and "black people".

I guess, those who say stuff about monkeys are either a minority (like the neo-nazis in Germany, for example), or do not really mean it. There are a lot of mocking and insulting nicknames in Russia for many ethnicities and neighboring countries - Ukraine for example is called "Khokhlostan", yet those say it do not actually feel hate or prejudice.

By my experience they seemed like pretty normal guys and they really did mean it. If there's a well established undercurrent of racism in Russia (no matter how jokey or whatever you think it is) that is a serious problem. I've heard the same stuff before - "we call them dirty sand n*ggers, they call us pigs" etc.

Russian wiki mentions burning the crops and stealing cattle. The main goal was to drive people out, to demoralize them - not to slaughter them.
And yes, it is somewhat justifiable, considering the war lasts for 50 years and it is not Russians, who started it.

So genocide and ethnic cleansing is justifiable. Thanks for making that clear to everyone.

A comparatively small nation, that literally has a robber culture and preys on your caravans, on your people? The war started, because these people attacked Russian people - no one cared about them and their territories before that for centuries.
If people cannot be reasoned with and cause trouble, you do not humbly endure that, you do something. And their resettlement to a place, where they cannot cause trouble, was a reasonable measure.

People need to read this and they need to read it now. This is possibly the worst thing I've heard someone on Bay 12 say in a long time.

Rural Vainakh villages are self-sustainable medieval-style villages. They do not work or have sophisticated services. Most North Caucasians do not work even now - a true mountain-person is supposed to take things from others by force - work is humiliation for them. Besides, what's wrong with the steppe? Kazhakhs live there, they don't complain.

I don't even know what to say.

And many Crimean Tatars were collaborating with Germans. Maybe it was too harsh to condemn the whole nation for that, but they had quite a bad reputation already. Also, it is a very small nation - 500 000 people is like 1/20 of Moscow.

Please provide evidence for the collaboration.

Since they embarked in a steppe, I would expect them to dig, find a water source for a well, grow some plump helmets, build some workplaces and surround their fortress with walls to withstand a goblin siege.

ITT: People make DF related jokes about genocide

It's not that "we don't talk about the 90s" - it is that the 90s are a really shitty time - a time of anarchy, economical collapse and territories falling apart. A geopolitical catastrophe. Whatever happened during that period - is a shameful part of our history, indeed.

But it's very much behind you, isn't it? It's well behind you. The '90s were another time and all the guys who committed the atrocities and the crimes are all gone. They couldn't possibly be in government right now, could they?

Of course they must be useful. Geopolitics Imperialism is not charity.

I'm thinking of writing these quotes down.

No, the Chechen Wars are our war against radical islamists. And radical islamism is bad, m'kay?

This is like talking to someone from Oceania.

This is getting pretty heated now and I'm starting to get a bit upset. Pretty much all of my sensibilities have been offended in the last 2 minutes. It would be best if I keep I spoiler on it and wrap it up there, we've pretty much said what needed to be said.

Current affairs regarding Crimea are more important than this line of thought and I'm sure people would rather not see my enormous walls of text, no matter how passionate they are.

[Comrade P.]

It's not that "we don't talk about the 90s" - it is that the 90s are a really shitty time - a time of anarchy, economical collapse and territories falling apart. A geopolitical catastrophe. Whatever happened during that period - is a shameful part of our history, indeed.

But it's very much behind you, isn't it? It's well behind you. The '90s were another time and all the guys who committed the atrocities and the crimes are all gone. They couldn't possibly be in government right now, could they?

90's just set a paradigm in heads: take whatever you want from your state, who cares, the get the hell out of country. It still works for a lot of men here.
It sucks. But what we do now - we set a new paradigm. At leat try to. When the generation in charge of power changes, things'll change all around us. No idea in what way they'll change, however.

[Owlbread]

90's just set a paradigm in heads: take whatever you want from your state, who cares, the get the hell out of country. It still works for a lot of men here.
It sucks. But what we do now - we set a new paradigm. At leat try to. When the generation in charge of power changes, things'll change all around us. No idea in what way they'll change, however.

Out of interest Comrade, when do you think the current generation in power will change? Can you see an end to the current establishment in the same way that things changed in the early 90s?

[olemars]

Not only would the interim gov get soooo ousted, they may be giving it away for nothing. Not to mention, you're assuming Russia's motives are /actually/ aligned with 'protecting ethnic russians'.

I am honestly rather amused by this. Russia can't even have an honestly morally sound basis for its actions without it seeming like a coverup for something anymore. Not claiming it's true, just observing - if Russia did have the interests of ethnic Russians abroad in mind first and foremost, it would still get the same treatment, because 'obviously they can't be doing that just for the people'.

Also, shortage of something = incentive to develop better ways to produce something. Cruel and effective. ^_^

Welp, maybe someone doing risk assessment for the russian action plan in Crimea should have had a look at recent history and noticed that when the USA decided to go it alone, flout international opinion and fuck over another country, they took a massive cred hit that weakened their position globally and they're still barely recovering from it. A US politician can't even get out of bed without being accused of having ulterior motives.

Putin has done exactly the same arrogant mistakes that W did. "I'm going to fix something my predecessor couldn't, I might have to tweak some facts and twist some elbows to do it, but I'm going to be so popular afterwards!"