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[Knit tie]

Beznogim, Russia is a colonial empire even now. Moscow is its pampered metropole, everything other than central Russia is its neglected colony.

[XXSockXX]

What we have here, I think, is better called - a continental Empire.
When the new territories are adjacent to the main land, you see, it allows the common folk to migrate proportionally, have active contacts with each other, already have some shared history, borrow culture elements, integrate and intermingle into each other. So, almost none ethnicities were discriminated in Russia throughout the history, no one here sent blankets with smallpox to the native peoples of Siberia, for example, and their nobles often became Russian nobility, too. Relations between, say, Russians and Tatars are like between English and Welsh - foreigners would hardly make a difference. Now, imagine an Indian noble in the British House of Lords during Victorian era - while in Russia we had, for example, Bashkir and Azerbaijani nobles, muslim generals, etc. Also we develop new territories, not bleed them out of resources.
We have and always had, especially in comparison to European countries experience, a surprisingly peaceful, united and multi-cultural society.

I could use your exact words to describe German Ostsiedlung from the 12th - 19th century, migration of common folk, trade contacts, mixing of nobility, shared history and culture, foundation of settlements near the main territory. That all describes the situation quite well. I have no idea why, barring some minor misunderstandings, Russians would have objected to joining our peaceful, multicultural society.

[MarcAFK]

Not that the west didn't cause the deaths of possibly half a million Germans as a result of their forced resettlement after the war, But as far as I can tell they didn't resort to openly shooting people who didn't want to/couldnt be moved from Poland/Czechoslovakia/etc.
Mostly frozen and starved to death, disease, and of course beatings, rape, etc from people who were pissed off as a result of the war.
Most of Europe can't be found blameless as a result of the 20th century, it was as bloody, depraved, and savage as any century in the past and anyone who believes otherwise has been brainwashed by their government.
God or whatever diety you believe in help us if we cant avoid this kind of shit returning, and honestly it seems that whenever a population is deprived, mistreated, or starved enough they will always turn to enhanced nationalism and violently oppress whatever minoritys happen to be around. Universally, no exception, laws, morals, religion, all fall down against the mighty weight of human nature. The only thing that keeps us away from that kind of carnage is open dialogue, transparent government, free media, and even then corruption and atrocity always manage to find a way of sneaking in, but we can hope that things can get better, right?

[DJ]

If you think the Irish were treated better than the Indians, you should read up on the Great Famine.

And if you think the Russians treated their colonies well, you should read up on Hungary '56.

[Beznogim]

Ukrainian Ranger

As for role of Indians in Victorian Britain - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sake_Dean_Mahomet

It is more of an exception to the rule. Similar to the existence of black slaveholders in USA.



Owlbread

I could talk about how Scots, Welsh, English and especially Irish people did not have the same rights in the British Empire (Irishmen were considered "n*ggers turned inside out") but that would distract from the main issues here.

Ok, maybe I had too idealistic picture about Britain society. My bad, sorry.

This is very interesting considering I have heard several Russians use those exact words to describe Caucasians,

It is mostly the product of "city vs village" conflict, because some Caucasus rural inhabitants for some reasons still possess warlike medieval mentality (plus religious zeal). All village folk, disregarding ethnicity, is generally considered as "быдло" (cattle), so no surprise, that their migration to the capital causes some tension.

and if you don't call this genocide I don't know what is.

First, I said, "almost". Second, genocide is a mass killing of an ethnic group. These people were offered: either resettlement within Russian empire, or resettlement into Turkey. Only a small part chose to remain in Russia - and this group exists still. No intentional killings - no genocide.
And the whole Caucasus conflict initially escalated, because local inhabitants were constantly robbing Russian trade caravans moving to Georgia. It was like having a pirate enclave, similar to Caribbean pirates, only on land.

Same with the deportations that lead to nearly 50% of the Crimean Tatar population dying of starvation, or the deportation of the Vainakh (Chechen/Ingush) peoples which led to up to 200,000 of the 500,000 Vainakhs in total dying of starvation and neglect.

Crimean Tatar and Vainakh deportations were the WW2 necessity. If they had supported the German invaders, it would cause some very huge problems.
And again, they were moved, not deliberately killed. As for starvation - the whole country was scarce on food at that period.

You mean certain ethnic groups were considered more useful than others to the Russian colonists, like the Ossetians. They have been consistently used in attempts to keep tabs on the Caucasian nations whether they were Ingush, Chechen or especially Georgian. Those that were considered a problem (i.e. wanted independence) were going to have it tough. In Scotland the British government did the same thing by choosing Protestant Highland clans like the Munros and Campbells to control the rebellious ones.

Russia consists of about 185 ethnic groups. So more than a hundred and a half were considered useful. That is - almost all.

Ethnic groups considered useful to the Russian establishment have been rewarded in the past for their support. Take a look at the East Prigorodny Conflict where native Ingush were ethnically cleansed from their lands in North Ossetia-Alania by Ossetian militias supported by Russian government forces.

This conflict is of 1989 - 1992, so it is of time, when USSR was crumbling apart. The late 80s - early 90s were a really shitty time, indeed.

Why, yes. Yes, imagine that.

1919. XX century, civilized time period already.
Victorian era is approximately 1837 - 1901. So, in 1800 - 1900 it would have still been an unthinkable act, I guess. And that proves my point.
India was colonised in 1612. And the first Indian lord in Britain appeared only 300 years after that.
Russia was cool with foreign culture nobility since about 1700.

Let me just say that nearly 20,000 Russian men and boys didn't die in two wars 20 years ago because you showed the people of the mountains too much kindness, nor those who died in the last insurgency, or the insurgency before that...

People of the mountains 20 years ago got under heavy influence of the Wahhabism ideology, sponsored by Saudi Arabia in an attempt to turn the land into second shithole like Afghanistan.

I'm just going to show you this quote taken from this book by the Russian playwright and historian Edvard Radzinsky in which Soviet records were examined in order to write a biography of Stalin.

Worse than citing Radzinsky is to cite Fomenko with his alternate timeline.




Knit tie

Beznogim, Russia is a colonial empire even now. Moscow is its pampered metropole, everything other than central Russia is its neglected colony.

I have relatives in Vladivostok. The living conditions are quite decent there, I assure you.

[Cheeetar]

I'm just going to show you this quote taken from this book by the Russian playwright and historian Edvard Radzinsky in which Soviet records were examined in order to write a biography of Stalin.

Worse than citing Radzinsky is to cite Fomenko with his alternate timeline.

How are these two people related in the slightest?

[Beznogim]

How are these two people related in the slightest?

Both are considered clowns by a lot of people in Russia.

[Cheeetar]

How are these two people related in the slightest?

Both are considered clowns by a lot of people in Russia.

[citation needed]

[Owlbread]

Both are considered clowns by a lot of people in Russia.

So what historians do I have to quote for you to consider my arguments credible?

[Sindain]

Colonies are the territories separated by large distance from metropole. This means the situation, when the leading ethnicity of the country is a considerable minority in its colonies. For example, there are a lot of British people in England and quite few in India, when it was British colony.

So, if the main ethnicity of the mother country and the main ethnicity of the colony have to be different, that means the 13 colonies were never actually colonies? nice to know.

and if you don't call this genocide I don't know what is.

First, I said, "almost". Second, genocide is a mass killing of an ethnic group. These people were offered: either resettlement within Russian empire, or resettlement into Turkey. Only a small part chose to remain in Russia - and this group exists still. No intentional killings - no genocide.
And the whole Caucasus conflict initially escalated, because local inhabitants were constantly robbing Russian trade caravans moving to Georgia. It was like having a pirate enclave, similar to Caribbean pirates, only on land.

Same with the deportations that lead to nearly 50% of the Crimean Tatar population dying of starvation, or the deportation of the Vainakh (Chechen/Ingush) peoples which led to up to 200,000 of the 500,000 Vainakhs in total dying of starvation and neglect.

Crimean Tatar and Vainakh deportations were the WW2 necessity. If they had supported the German invaders, it would cause some very huge problems.
And again, they were moved, not deliberately killed. As for starvation - the whole country was scarce on food at that period.

Whenever you say resettlement like its a good thing or even just not bad I flinch. Maybe this just highlights the difference in mindset, but I know in my country some of our worst atrocities were under the veil of "resettlement" and "necessary for the war effort".

[Owlbread]

It is mostly the product of "city vs village" conflict, because some Caucasus rural inhabitants for some reasons still possess warlike medieval mentality (plus religious zeal). All village folk, disregarding ethnicity, is generally considered as "быдло" (cattle), so no surprise, that their migration to the capital causes some tension.

I think that sounds a lot like a dodge. I heard them being described as subhuman monkeys. People who "aren't human". If you want to put that down to a non-racist, non-sectarian conflict of rural vs urban people hell mend you.

First, I said, "almost". Second, genocide is a mass killing of an ethnic group. These people were offered: either resettlement within Russian empire, or resettlement into Turkey. Only a small part chose to remain in Russia - and this group exists still. No intentional killings - no genocide.

No intentional killings...

"Yes, I believe that the concept of genocide against the Circassians was justified. To understand why we are talking about the genocide, you have to look at history. During the Russian-Caucasian war, Russian generals not only expelled the Circassians, but also destroyed them physically. Not only killed them in combat but burned hundreds of villages with civilians. Spared neither children nor women nor the elderly. The entire fields of ripe crops were burned, the orchards cut down, so that the Circassians could not return to their habitations. A destruction of civilian population on a massive scale is it not a genocide?"

In the modern era it is still possible to find the bones of Circassian civilians in valleys in Krasnodar Krai lying out in the open, butchered by Russian soldiers.

And the whole Caucasus conflict initially escalated, because local inhabitants were constantly robbing Russian trade caravans moving to Georgia. It was like having a pirate enclave, similar to Caribbean pirates, only on land.

So that warrants deporting the entire nation to another country, killing tens of thousands in the process?

Crimean Tatar and Vainakh deportations were the WW2 necessity. If they had supported the German invaders, it would cause some very huge problems.

So because a number of Vainakhs supported the German invaders (there was no Crimean Tatar support of any meaningful sort) in an alliance that was extremely shaky and basically collapsed within a few years because they both hated each other's guts, that warranted the deportation of 500 000 people? An entire nation? To the middle of the steppe? With no food or work or services?

And again, they were moved, not deliberately killed. As for starvation - the whole country was scarce on food at that period.

This is just wonderful. I really hope Ukrainian Ranger reads this because you'd make the same argument about the Holodomor. "It was just an accident, we didn't mean to kill 200,000 on purpose... Who knew what would happen if we put hundreds of thousands of people in packed, uninsulated, unheated freight trucks and sent them 2000 miles into the desert/steppe?"

Russia consists of about 185 ethnic groups. So more than a hundred and a half were considered useful. That is - almost all.

The vast majority were/are so tiny they couldn't mount a resistance of any meaningful sort, nor could they in the past.

This conflict is of 1989 - 1992, so it is of time, when USSR was crumbling apart. The late 80s - early 90s were a really shitty time, indeed.

This is the response I always hear when I make reference to the Russian state's appalling actions. "Oh but it happened in the 90s - we don't talk about the 90s". Where do you think the guys that committed those atrocities and gave the orders are today?

India was colonised in 1612. And the first Indian lord in Britain appeared only 300 years after that.
Russia was cool with foreign culture nobility since about 1700.

The "foreign cultural nobility" of cultures considered useful to the establishment, like those you have repeatedly mentioned - Tatars and Bashkirs and my own mention the Ossetes.

People of the mountains 20 years ago got under heavy influence of the Wahhabism ideology, sponsored by Saudi Arabia in an attempt to turn the land into second shithole like Afghanistan.

Fantastic. So the first Chechen War and the Second Chechen war had nothing to do with National Liberation or grievances about human rights abuses in the past, only foreign influence. Russia has never done anything wrong and outside forces are responsible for all your problems. Excuse my straw man but that kind of thought process gets on my nerves to no end.

Again, I look forward to you informing me which historians I need to be quoting and citing before you'll bother to consider what I'm saying to be credible. Evidently the ones I've chosen haven't passed the test.

[Guardian G.I.]

Meanwhile, Crimean self-defence militias and Russian "polite people" are currently engaged in a stand-off at the Belbek airfield in Sevastopol, where Ukrainian troopers, their families and (reportedly) Western journalists have barricaded themselves in the airfield headquarters building.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Owlbread, That may be rude but... I suggest to stop wasting your time on a guy who has 25 posts over three years. Your arguments will not change his mindset and he is not a true Bay12er to care about his walls of text

[smjjames]

Oh hey, heres at least one Russian who voted against making Crimea part of Russia

Though if he really IS the only one in the Duma who voted against the thing, then good for him for not going with the bandwagon.

Unsurprisingly, Russian authorities retaliated against this one guy who dared to speak out and disagree with Putin.

[smirk]

Owlbread, That may be rude but... I suggest to stop wasting your time on a guy who has 25 posts over three years. Your arguments will not change his mindset and he is not a true Bay12er to care about his walls of text

That's not quite fair; Bay12 isn't a gated community. Beznogim has played and (presumably) enjoyed DF; they're not a spambot and that's really the only hurdle they need to clear.