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[olemars]

So does the US, really. Still a lot of whitehaired old men in the US government. Some of them probably knew McCarthy personally.

[Owlbread]

As I said in my enormous post, I rail against people who still have a Cold War mentality basically every day at home.

[smjjames]

True, Russia just seems to be stuck in the mentality a whole lot more than other countries. From what you guys are saying that is.

[scrdest]

The KGB cloned Tom Clancy?

It's not a new phenomenon. The 'our country gets lolinvaded' was a VERY popular genre before WWI.

[Owlbread]

True, Russia just seems to be stuck in the mentality a whole lot more than other countries. From what you guys are saying that is.

Russia was under a more totalitarian system than we were, experienced heavier indoctrination and their mentality is also more established - it goes back to the 19th century, hence Guardian's constant invocation of the Colonial Era.

[Frumple]

I don't think the book was translated into English. No one in the West would like to read a Russian book of questionable quality with them being the bad guys.

You'd... be pretty wrong, there. There wouldn't be the largest of markets for it, but it would exist. I would almost guarantee you there's been some of that stuff translated and sold in western markets already, if you dig hard enough. There'd be stuff sold untranslated, too. Plenty of folks in the west that would love to see some western nations getting shin-kicked.

[Dutchling]

"Democracy"

Also I'd love to read that book, assuming it's well written of course.

[Helgoland]

As belligerent as Russia is under Putin and the current elite who exploit the anti-Western, nationalist undercurrent that grew in Tsarist times and was expanded upon by the Soviets, I do not believe that we need to defend against them militarily. Russia is no threat to us, only to the poor bastards that they consider to be on their "turf" - that goes for the Baltic Republics and the Black Sea region.

Yup, this is where I disagree, but in a different way that you probably thought. Everybody knows that Putin attacking any Central European power would result in it getting kicked back to Port Arthur by all of what's left of Europe. But we can reasonably assume that Putin will try to continue his expansionist policies, maybe even including an attack on the Baltics and/or Poland (discounting NATO).

There's one thing you need to know about me before I continue. I consider Europe my home. All of it. Literally. That's why I'd be just as pissed at an attack on Tallinn or Helsinki as at an attack on, let's say, Magdeburg. And I'm just as willing to defend the Baltics as to defend the Rhine, if that should become necessary.

Russia invading European countries violates my sense of aestethics. I do not like that. And if you're serious about positive nationalism, you should be feeling the same way, Owlbread.

[Owlbread]

I know Helgoland, I feel the same way about Europe and about Russia invading other countries. It does violate my sense of aesthetics, just like their laws on homosexuality and separatism. I just think though we may need to look at extraordinary methods to counter this and integration may be the only way forward.

[Guardian G.I.]

As belligerent as Russia is under Putin and the current elite who exploit the anti-Western, nationalist undercurrent that grew in Tsarist times and was expanded upon by the Soviets, I do not believe that we need to defend against them militarily. Russia is no threat to us, only to the poor bastards that they consider to be on their "turf" - that goes for the Baltic Republics and the Black Sea region.

Yup, this is where I disagree, but in a different way that you probably thought. Everybody knows that Putin attacking any Central European power would result in it getting kicked back to Port Arthur by all of what's left of Europe. But we can reasonably assume that Putin will try to continue his expansionist policies, maybe even including an attack on the Baltics and/or Poland (discounting NATO).

One question - does the Baltic states and/or Poland have enormous supplies of unobtanium that Russia can't live without?
I understand the point of Russian meddling in Ukraine - to keep NATO away from Russian naval base in Sevastopol, but attacking Poland or Lithuania/Latvia/Estonia is not only very dangerous in the long term (guaranteed WW3) but also incredibly pointless.

[nenjin]

As belligerent as Russia is under Putin and the current elite who exploit the anti-Western, nationalist undercurrent that grew in Tsarist times and was expanded upon by the Soviets, I do not believe that we need to defend against them militarily. Russia is no threat to us, only to the poor bastards that they consider to be on their "turf" - that goes for the Baltic Republics and the Black Sea region.

Yup, this is where I disagree, but in a different way that you probably thought. Everybody knows that Putin attacking any Central European power would result in it getting kicked back to Port Arthur by all of what's left of Europe. But we can reasonably assume that Putin will try to continue his expansionist policies, maybe even including an attack on the Baltics and/or Poland (discounting NATO).

One question - does the Baltic states and/or Poland have enormous supplies of unobtanium that Russia can't live without?
I understand the point of Russian meddling in Ukraine - to keep NATO away from its naval base in Sevastopol, but attacking Poland or Lithuania/Latvia/Estonia is not only very dangerous in the long term (guaranteed WW3) but also incredibly pointless.

I think the threat of Russian invasion elsewhere is pretty far-fetched.

That said, I thought capturing Crimea was far-fetched too. And currently the US is working itself up into a tizzy over the prospect of Russia crossing into more of Ukraine. Russia deciding now is the perfect time to conduct military exercises along the border isn't helping matters.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

The KGB cloned Tom Clancy?

Heh, my impression exactly.

True, Russia just seems to be stuck in the mentality a whole lot more than other countries. From what you guys are saying that is.

@this kinda stuff
If it's using the books/game as an example, the same can be said about the less-thought out crap like cod mw 2. Which was the triple-A-est of AAA games.
I can't remember, was that the one where the player shoots up a Russian airport, the Russians invade the west coast, or both?

[Helgoland]

I know Helgoland, I feel the same way about Europe and about Russia invading other countries. It does violate my sense of aesthetics, just like their laws on homosexuality and separatism. I just think though we may need to look at extraordinary methods to counter this and integration may be the only way forward.

Exactly! I'd even go so far as to say that integration will eventually happen (see a few posts of mine around page 200), but we should avoid a situation in which it'll be a war that makes it possible. I thought you were saying you were willing to let a Russian expansion of that sort go by unnoticed... Why are you against NATO, then? Integration needs to happen on a civilian level - EU or similar. Military integration won't achieve anything.

Guardian: I don't think they will, and I hope and pray that they won't, but the past weeks have taught every European west of Russia/Belarus that it's not completely unthinkable. And if it happens, we should not be caught unprepared. So basically what nenjin said

[Sonlirain]

It's not about doing a holstile takeover of every ex Warsaw Pact country but rebulding of soviet influence/power. Russia wanted to have Ukraine as a sateite state but since UPA (100% antirusian xenophobes) did a takeover they pretty much lost all "legal" footing there and considering how UPA was hostile towards their meddling from the very beginning they knew they will sooner or later try to screw them oout of their (very important) naval base.

So the simplest solution? Cap it while ukraine is still in dissaray.

Basically if UPA didn't destabilize the country sevastopol would stay ukrainian because russia would have no real buisness in taking it.

Now Poland and Baltic states... tbh i don't really see a reason for them to do anything beyond maybe trying to nudge us into having a more pro russian goverment but that ain't happening anytime soon and going all Georgia style on them would sprng NATO into action beccause unlike georgia Poalnd and baltics are too close for comfort.

[olemars]

Poland and the Baltics are actual NATO members, unlike Georgia. The baltics are a little on edge right now, partly because of their history with the Soviet Union, partly because they were left with no credible military forces when the Soviet Union became history, partly because of things like this.