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[Owlbread]

NATO was origionally formed to defend against Russia. I think there were actually talks of dismantling NATO since it wasn't needed, but that was before this crisis blew up.

Yes, I know why we created NATO in the first place, it's just that I can't see why Russia shouldn't join. If they are so concerned about NATO being an American puppet organisation going on globetrotting adventures, intervening in foreign lands (Crimea is not foreign, remember, neither is Chechnya, or Azerbaijan, or Georgia) it makes perfect sense for them to join and create a greater east-west balance in the organisation. Russia wants to stay a nuclear power, so does the USA. Why not join forces? Why not build friendships?

[miljan]

I am curious to hear from some of the pro-Putin Russians in this thread exactly why it is such a bad idea for Russia to join NATO and the EU.

I dont know about NATO (well i know, they dont want to be US dogs  ), but it is not good for everyone to join EU, as it brings a lot of different things, bad and good, depends from country to country (it can harm your industry, small businesses and other things).

[Baffler]

Wikipedia tells me that the Soviet Union actually asked to join in 1954. I don't know the details surrounding turning them down, but I can hazard a guess...

[nenjin]

Then why are you supporting it?

Was he?

He's suggesting taking no position on anything Russia does as a way to appease them. An odd stance to take when followed directly by "now I don't support all these things....."

[Owlbread]

I dont know about NATO (well i know, they dont want to be US dogs  ), but it is not good for everyone to join EU, as it brings a lot of different things, bad and good, depends from country to country (it can harm your industry, small businesses and other things).

Considering the number of Russians that are currently in Western Europe, having left EU countries with substantial Russian minorities (e.g. Latvia), I think Russians from the motherland would enjoy the new freedom of movement.

The New Russian oligarchs would love it too; they would have easier access to the various European banking and financial sectors. I know their influence is already felt in Iceland and Cyprus but I'm sure this would make life easier for them. This way you won't even have to be as wealthy as the Lebedevs to make it big in London, come over while you're just starting out.

[smirk]

Then why are you supporting it?

Was he?

He's suggesting taking no position on anything Russia does as a way to appease them.

Dunno; it seems to me like he's posting points he doesn't necessarily agree with but that many(?) Russians do hold, as a way to keep the thread a bit more informed of those thought processes. Playing devil's advocate.

I could be wrong though; the language barrier seems to get in the way quite a bit. But that's what I'm getting from his posts.

[smjjames]

NATO was origionally formed to defend against Russia. I think there were actually talks of dismantling NATO since it wasn't needed, but that was before this crisis blew up.

Yes, I know why we created NATO in the first place, it's just that I can't see why Russia shouldn't join. If they are so concerned about NATO being an American puppet organisation going on globetrotting adventures, intervening in foreign lands (Crimea is not foreign, remember, neither is Chechnya, or Azerbaijan, or Georgia) it makes perfect sense for them to join and create a greater east-west balance in the organisation. Russia wants to stay a nuclear power, so does the USA. Why not join forces? Why not build friendships?

Maybe because they don't want to be stopped from intervening in places like Crimea, Chechnya, Azerbajian, and Georgia?

On the wiki, they actually didn't want Ukraine and Georgia to join NATO.

[da_nang]

Saddest part is that current western politics actually empower Putin and goverment. And you don't even understand why. Well, most of you.

And what should "The West" do to remove Putin from power? Any suggestions? Allow him to do whatever he wants?

Don't support fascists Bandera movement, don't hold yearly former SS parades, don't surround every bit of russian land with NATO, dont support coups, don't think that you had rightfull end in Georgia/Chechen conflict, don't piss of if russians vote no to gays or piss of if someone launching concert in orthodox church of nationwide significance... And nothing will ever started.

(for those angry with me personally in advance I welcome you to search page and find my older posts. I dont support even 1/3 of what I just mentioned)

Alright, I've got to ask. What's with this Bandera movement the general Russian population is screaming about? I don't recall the Euromaidan being of fascist nature. I can understand if certain right-wing extremists would take advantage of the situation but the gist of it has still been about EU integration.

Also, may I ask for the opinion of other Russians (theirs and and what they think the general population's opinion is) regarding the following:

• Right to free speech - I know neo-Nazism has bad connotations and all but holding demonstrations (or parades if that's what one chooses to call them) is within their right. Remember, they still have to abide by the law.
• A sovereign nation is free to ally itself with anyone as it sees fit - Let's be honest here, there typically does exist bad blood between former Soviet states and Russia. Even though the Soviet Union fell three decades ago, there's still that fear of once again being cast into servitude and the rise of Russian nationalists isn't helping. (I don't claim to know which came first.)
• Coups - Now I don't know if gogis here meant all coups or specific ones, so please elaborate. I personally can see myself supporting it as a last resort in the name of [insert ideals]. (Yes, moral relativity makes it kinda moot and all.)
• Homosexuality and speech thereof - It personally saddens me to see the what's happening in Russia. That simply shouldn't have to happen, for humanity's sake.

Chechen I won't touch since I'm not well informed about the issues. Fill in if you want to, though. Religion is also a no-no, for obvious reasons.

[miljan]

NATO was origionally formed to defend against Russia. I think there were actually talks of dismantling NATO since it wasn't needed, but that was before this crisis blew up.

Yes, I know why we created NATO in the first place, it's just that I can't see why Russia shouldn't join. If they are so concerned about NATO being an American puppet organisation going on globetrotting adventures, intervening in foreign lands (Crimea is not foreign, remember, neither is Chechnya, or Azerbaijan, or Georgia) it makes perfect sense for them to join and create a greater east-west balance in the organisation. Russia wants to stay a nuclear power, so does the USA. Why not join forces? Why not build friendships?

Umm, because things what US wants and Russia wants are different. In other simple words, the corporation behind US and the ones on power in russia want to have more for them, they dont want to share.
Also god help us all if US and russia really join forces, than the world will be fucked up for real (never ever wish that, to have one supper power, you are assuming here that NATO and US are good, thy are not, they are as crap as russia). There needs to be competition in everything, if you have one on power, they will always, do whatever they want.

[Owlbread]

Maybe because they don't want to be stopped from intervening in places like Crimea, Chechnya, Azerbajian, and Georgia?

On the wiki, they actually didn't want Ukraine and Georgia to join NATO.

Yes, you see, I have a number of reasons I have read somewhere already but I wanted to hear from people like Comrade P (a reasonable and friendly man) or even the passionate Avis or collected Gogis regarding joining NATO and the EU before I started firing those off.

Umm, because things what US wants and Russia wants are different. In other simple words, the corporation behind US and the ones on power in russia want to have more for them, they dont want to share.

This interests me a lot. In Europe we've pretty much all got the same "elite" whether you're in the UK, France, Spain or Germany. They've all got shared interests and they all lean in similar directions. The Scottish Independence debate has been illustrative of this; the ease with which certain EU-commisioner types like Barroso fell behind British Government arguments was one example. Evidently the Russian and CIS elite is very separate to the Western one, which is unusual.

Also god help us all if US and russia really join forces, than the world will be fucked up for real (never ever wish that, to have one supper power, you are assuming here that NATO and US are good, thy are not, they are as crap as russia).

If you knew me you would know that I have never thought that in my life. I've spent the last two years arguing that Scotland must be an independent, non-aligned country (i.e. not in NATO) for all the same reasons you have for opposing NATO.

I just think the main issue in this whole conflict is the fact that we have a world with two main players - China and the USA. The rest are periphery, though the EU is still in the West's sphere and China/Russia/India are almost in another sphere.

The problem is none of us are very comfortable in our respective "spheres" (see the enormous diplomatic rifts between China and India for example and Russia's superpower ambitions) and we're all trying to do our own thing.

If we're going to bother with these alliances at all it makes perfect sense for Russia to join the Western sphere in order to counter China. Even though the Western sphere may force them to make uncomfortable choices regarding human rights (as in they'd actually have to get some) I think the Western sphere would suit them better financially and economically. China's sphere is too unpredictable, ours is far more established and stable - and what do Russians like better than stability and economic security?

There needs to be competition in everything, if you have one on power, they will always, do whatever they want.

I'm pretty much proposing a NATO where there is greater competition within the organisation between East and West. That may lead to things "balancing out", or it could lead to a collapse of NATO. Either way I'm happy.

[mainiac]

He's suggesting taking no position on anything Russia does as a way to appease them. An odd stance to take when followed directly by "now I don't support all these things....."

I don't think he was suggesting those things be done.  I'm thinking he's suggesting those are the extreme lengths it would take if we actually wanted to appease them.

Yes, I know why we created NATO in the first place, it's just that I can't see why Russia shouldn't join.

Because they just invaded their neighbor and are hostile towards the purpose of NATO?

It would be great if Russia wanted to get on board with the European identity but they don't.  Letting them into NATO wouldn't change that, it would just turn NATO meaningless.

[GreatJustice]

I dont know about NATO (well i know, they dont want to be US dogs  ), but it is not good for everyone to join EU, as it brings a lot of different things, bad and good, depends from country to country (it can harm your industry, small businesses and other things).

Considering the number of Russians that are currently in Western Europe, having left EU countries with substantial Russian minorities (e.g. Latvia), I think Russians from the motherland would enjoy the new freedom of movement.

The New Russian oligarchs would love it too; they would have easier access to the various European banking and financial sectors. I know their influence is already felt in Iceland and Cyprus but I'm sure this would make life easier for them. This way you won't even have to be as wealthy as the Lebedevs to make it big in London, come over while you're just starting out.

Russian industry would collapse in on itself as there is no way it could realistically compete on the same terms as Western European firms operating under European trade and tax rules. The Russian economy would become even more heavily dependent on natural resources, and even in that respect they'd be in danger of becoming shackled by EU environmental laws. The oligarchs would love it, but the net benefit for the average Russian would be quite poor.

[Owlbread]

Because they just invaded their neighbor and are hostile towards the purpose of NATO?

Well, again, I was going to wait until I heard from some Russian people on the matter before I started giving those kinds of reasons. I'd rather give them a chance.

It would be great if Russia wanted to get on board with the European identity but they don't.  Letting them into NATO wouldn't change that, it would just turn NATO meaningless.

If the purpose of our Alliance is to defend against Russia, keeping them as perpetual boogiemen, we are being deceived and used in much the same way as the Russian public have been for decades. Russia should not be our Goldstein, nor should NATO be Russia's.

[Zangi]

Then why are you supporting it?

Was he?

He's suggesting taking no position on anything Russia does as a way to appease them.

Dunno; it seems to me like he's posting points he doesn't necessarily agree with but that many(?) Russians do hold, as a way to keep the thread a bit more informed of those thought processes. Playing devil's advocate.

I could be wrong though; the language barrier seems to get in the way quite a bit. But that's what I'm getting from his posts.

So...  from what I understand:
gogis: I don't believe in this myself, but this is what the Russian people think. 
B12ers: What?!  That is bad, you are just spewing Russian propaganda!  You believe all this?!  What is wrong with you!?

[Dutchling]

Putin is doomed.