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[Ukrainian Ranger]

Seriously, why not just support government documents in both languages? I get that Ukraine wants to stay as far away as possible from Russian culture, but if you use both, everybody is happy.

1) Some explanation of the current language situation

Russian and Ukrainian is not like Finnish and Swedish in Finland or English and French in Canada or German\French\Italian in Switzerland were  person may don't understand the other language at all or don't understand it enough

In Ukraine huge majority of population* knows both Russian and Ukrainian.  Yep, some may have some minor problems writing\talking the other's language. Not that they will not be misunderstood, but their grammar\pronunciation will be weird and funny. That's all. Languages are too similar to not learn the second one when you live in a country.

* mostly morons like our last Prime Minister.   

2) Russian is dominating in nation-wide mass media. Local Ukrainian media in Crimea\Eastern Ukraine is non-existent

3) There are no lack of Russian language education from elementary schools to universities there are enough Russian language options. Contrary Ukrainian language education is often not available, especially in Crimea

4) I was badly insulted more than once in my life when I asked a governmental official to use Ukrainian language to answer me. That's forcing guys like them to use Ukrainian is what they call persecution

You see they want second official language not to have a right to use Russian. They have that. They want to have a right to never use Ukrainian. Language that they despise. Language that they call an ugly dialect of Russian. Language of the cattle. Language of stupid villagers. Language of Banderas (read Fascists)  and more, more and more.
They, in their heads, still live in Russian Empire as the main ethnicity and should not have a duty to learn the language of that savages they conquered.  Ukraine,  Baltic States. Central Asian countries, everywhere the situation is the same.
Don't you find it strange that Russian language is "persecuted" in each and every post-Soviet country?

I don't say that all Russians behave like that. I have  friends, Ethnic Russians, who love Ukrainian culture and language, speak Ukrainian no worse then me and have no imperialism virus in their head

PS, Also, some ethnic Ukrainians do have inferiority complex and try to be like Russians, including shunning Ukrainian language

[smjjames]

Well, Estonia and Latvia are NATO members, so he can't touch them, I don't know how many Russians live in Finland, but that doesn't seem likely. If he were to go after Poland, he would have to get through Belarus and I don't think anybody is going to fall for that 'massive military drill on the border and then invade' trick again.

More than 70 000, last I checked. And here there be Finns who haven't forgotten the Winter War and Continuation War.

Russophobia is very real here.

If he were to try attacking Finland, well, Finland kicked Russian butt before and Norway and Sweden will definetly help defend.

Considering the laughable state the Swedish military is in right now, it will take more than that I fear to fend off Russia.

Excuse my lack of knowledge of Scandinavian military. Finland is apparently not in NATO, now would be a good time to join it.

There are a good deal of Russian born and self reported as Russian people in the US, but that only makes up a small percentage of the total US population and Putin would have to be absolutely insane to attack the US.

This kind of behavior by Russia is what NATO was created for wasn't it......

There are certainly talks of joining NATO in the air right now.

I bet Ukranians are wishing they HAD joined the NATO. Don't know what the requirements are though, if any.

[da_nang]

That's forcing guys like them to use Ukrainian is what they call persecution

Wait... They know both languages decently at least and refuses to use the other one when asked. And they call that persecution???

Holy fuck. Here I'm lucky to find anyone with decent Swedish. Here there be hate-speeches, death threats, racism and right-wing nationalists. Here it's a constant struggle to maintain the state language status of Swedish. Even more so with the True Finns gaining more popularity.

[XXSockXX]

I agree with Da_Nang, sanctioning 21 people (and not even Putin!) isn't going to do anything. Why they didn't put sanctions on Putin, no idea. Still though, it was a first step and arent going to be the last sanctions.

Yeah, step 2 isn't even active yet. There is also a step 3 which would include heavy economic sanctions. Remember, we are negotiating, so we can't waste all leverage at once. Step 2 is meant to show that it's serious and that we want to talk, sanctioning Putin personally would be an affront that might prevent further talks. If these further talks work out positively, we can think about going back to step 1 or even back to normal ideally. If the talks remain fruitless, we can go to step 3. If everything goes to shit, we'll have to think about what we'll do then. That's how negotiation works, it's all offers and threats, give and take, step by step. You need some wiggle room.

Now that we have seen that 'mass drill on the border and then invade' tactic, it shouldn't fool anybody a second time. Not sure why nobody saw through it the first time.....

Actually most people saw it through from relatively early on, except that the official Kremlin version is still that it is self defense forces in Crimea. Some people here predicted it quite early, I personally would not have thought that Putin would risk it, mostly because I think that all this so far could have been achieved diplomatically.

I bet Ukranians are wishing they HAD joined the NATO. Don't know what the requirements are though, if any.

There were talks about joining, in the early 2000s. Ukraine was offered the prospect of joining some time in the future, but it never came to that for the exact reason that is at the core of this situation: If you force Ukraine to decide between Russia and the West, you will make Russia feel threatened and you risk tearing Ukraine apart. Ukrainians were aware of that and didn't really wish to join, which they probably regret now.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

That's forcing guys like them to use Ukrainian is what they call persecution

Wait... They know both languages decently at least and refuses to use the other one when asked. And they call that persecution???

Holy fuck. Here I'm lucky to find anyone with decent Swedish. Here there be hate-speeches, death threats, racism and right-wing nationalists. Here it's a constant struggle to maintain the state language status of Swedish. Even more so with the True Finns gaining more popularity.

You see... Finnish and Swedish languages are very different

Russian and Ukrainian share something like 2\3rds words, have very similar grammar and not so different phonetics. So even a Russian from  Russia who never learned Ukrainian will partially understand what a Ukrainian says.

Russian that lives in Ukraine has regular contacts with Ukrainians and has access to Ukrainian media should learn it easily without spending any effort.
When a Russian who was born in Ukraine and lived there all his life claims that he has problem with officials using Ukrainian I find it very weird

[Mr. Strange]

True Finns

As a Finn I take offence to that. Call it Clown Party (Pelle Seura, PS).

Holy fuck. Here I'm lucky to find anyone with decent Swedish.

Given the state of Swedish language education, it's not lucky, it's a fucking miracle. You couldn't make it any worse from what it is even if you try.

We tried that in Finland. I still get Finnish papers. It's like as if they don't bother looking me up in the register and notice the "Native Tongue: SWEDISH" sign in big red letters.

Or basic bureaucracy. Even if you file every paper they need in the whole process you're going through right at the start, and tell them that, they stay on the desk of the first bureaucrat while he hands the mater to the next, who will then ask you to send new copies for what's missing. Those office rats only look at the papers in front of them, and never look up your information even if they have acces to it. Nope, just keep sending those papers in snail mail.
And that's for every little thing you need to get done. The rage never ends...

Finland is apparently not in NATO, now would be a good time to join it.

There's lot of opposition to that, thanks to americans playing cowboys world police around the globe. The only one who can push Finland to NATO is the Democratically Elected President of Democratic Russia. He is doing good job at it, maybe we should give him some kind of award?

[Sergarr]

Looks like bureaucrats are universal level threat.

Maybe we should start revolting against the oppressing bureaucracy? 

[mainiac]

Well, the US hasn't finished doing sanctions (no sanctions on Putin? What's up with that??) and I don't know what Germany and the rest of Europe are doing with sanctions.

Also, the stock here in the US went up by 200 points when the Crimean referendum went through, go figure. The stock market doesn't like instability.

Maybe sanctions take time?  It's easy to throw together a loophole prone thing that looks good but the US under Obama has taken the approach of working out a framework that's works and most western leaders seem inclined to follow the lead.

Maybe the stock market is more likely to respond to unexpectedly slightly better then expected domestic numbers then on the results of a referendum that everyone knew was rigged ahead of time?  A small change generally doesn't need foreign events to explain it.

Now that we have seen that 'mass drill on the border and then invade' tactic, it shouldn't fool anybody a second time. Not sure why nobody saw through it the first time.....

Sure they recognized the possibility, they just had faith that the Russians would do the smart thing rather then the stupid thing.  Countries have military drills on the border all the time.  The US tends to do several a year near North Korea.  That doesn't mean we are planning to invade the second they lower their guard.  Assuming that the russians would invade, throwing away huge amounts of economic and diplomatic capital for a sliver of land would be paranoid. 

It's like when your opponent draws the inside straight in poker.  Folding against an opponent who just drew the inside straight isn't a  good move, it's a bad one.

[Frumple]

Maybe we should start revolting against the oppressing bureaucracy? 

Sure, sure... just sign form 420-R in triplicate and submit it to the Bureau of Domestic Reform and you'll be contacted within 36 weeks as to whether your application to participate in bureaucratic revolution has been rejected or denied.

[XXSockXX]

There's lot of opposition to that, thanks to americans playing cowboys world police around the globe. The only one who can push Finland to NATO is the Democratically Elected President of Democratic Russia. He is doing good job at it, maybe we should give him some kind of award?

Ironically, one of the changes this whole thing might bring is that it has the potential to unite both the EU internally and the EU with the US, in times when these relationships were quite strained. Putin is indeed bringing peace and unity by turning back the clock 30 years. It was mentioned earlier in the thread, he is already nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.

The Russian Foreign Ministry announced a list of suggestions (e.g. demands) to end the Ukrainian crisis. These are:

• Ukraine should become a federation;
• The Russian language should become the second state language of Ukraine;
• Ukraine should recognize the Crimean independence referendum;
• Ukraine should become a politically and militarily neutral state.

It seems that Putin is not interested in conquering Ukraine, but in keeping the United States, EU and NATO away from it.

The thing with that list is how you interpret it.
Ukraine becoming a federation looks good on paper, as there is some division in the country and decentralisation could help with that. Then it looks like preparation for repeating the Crimea scenario piece by piece. Constitutional reform might be a good idea, but that is up to Ukraine, not Russia. First Russia would need to recognize the Ukrainian government and/or allow for elections that are not disturbed by military presence, provocations and the threat of invasion.

I'm sure something with the languages could be figured out, solutions on regional levels might make more sense. Also something that should be up to Ukrainian lawmakers after elections.

Getting the Crimea referendum recognized will be a main goal. I have doubts that it can be reversed, even with kicking and screaming. This might be a point where the West will eventually give in, at least leaving it in the "de-facto" limbo.

A neutral Ukraine sounds reasonable, let them sign an EU association treaty AND the customs union. On the other hand, being a militarily powerless state neighbouring an aggressive Russia is not a prospect Ukrainians are going to be happy about after this. Figuring out a scenario that is acceptable to Ukraine, Russia and the West is not going to be easy. It wasn't easy before and now it's a lot harder.

[smjjames]

Finland is apparently not in NATO, now would be a good time to join it.

There's lot of opposition to that, thanks to americans playing cowboys world police around the globe. The only one who can push Finland to NATO is the Democratically Elected President of Democratic Russia. He is doing good job at it, maybe we should give him some kind of award?

Not like Finland absolutely HAS to join into whatever the US is doing.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Ukraine should appeal to NATO for "emergency membership", in my opinion.

[XXSockXX]

Here's a list of the people affected by the sanctions. (It's in German, so name transcriptions might vary for speakers of other languages). The EU has sanctions against 21 people, the US against 11.

[Sheb]

We have this in Belgium, but it's not that functional. Doesn't help that both sides will use even the tiniest slip-up to block the other side.

To be fair, only the Flemish refuses to speak the other language while knowing it. We simply refuse to learn Dutch. :p

Also, the Russians didn't so much invade during the drills as step out of their military base. It's not even clear they have more troops in Crimea than their deal with Ukraine allow, it's just that they're supposed to be in their bases, not invading the country.

[Mr. Strange]

Not like Finland absolutely HAS to join into whatever the US is doing.

Tell that to the american politicians who cry out for invading defending themselves against Iran/Pakistan/North Korea/whatever next time there is terrorist attack on USA. Most people here just don't want to have anything to do with that.

Edit:

To be fair, only the Flemish refuses to speak French. We refuse to learn it. :p

This reminds me of my current EU3 game where all former Flemish now speak either portuguese or English.