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[Sheb]

It has been established the Estonian FM didn't understand what the doctor said though. She never looked at Berkut's injuries.

I wish they'd wait for the elections to sign the association agreement. It is a really significant step, the government that sign it should be totally legitimate.

[XXSockXX]

I wish they'd wait for the elections to sign the association agreement. It is a really significant step, the government that sign it should be totally legitimate.

Agreed, the timing is not good. I guess they're doing it both as a signal to Russia and as a part of the efforts to prevent bankruptcy, with giving Ukraine some trade benefits.
First part of the agreement is going to be signed next week, shortly after the Crimea referendum.

[ivze]

Plus, there's layers of deception. Might as well be the old gov't pretending to fake gov't aggression as protesters.

All police riffles are databased. Considering all databases are in hands of the new government, they could trace all bullets, that killed protesters, back to police riffles.
But it has not been done. There is no investigation.
http://rt.com/news/pace-probe-snipers-kiev-358/

[10ebbor10]

I'm certainly that if I ordered snipers to shoot against protestors, I would give them rifles that aren't in the database. I mean, they can't be that hard to get, right?

Besides, tracing them won't do much good, as some police armories were allegedly captured by protestors.

[XXSockXX]

There needs to be an investigation to end the rumours. On the Ukrainian side there is also a rumour that it might have been Russian agents.

But this:

I'm certainly that if I ordered snipers to shoot against protestors, I would give them rifles that aren't in the database. I mean, they can't be that hard to get, right?

Besides, tracing them won't do much good, as some police armories were allegedly captured by protestors.

seems to be a problem for any investigation.

[ivze]

But finding some bullets with the same riffle imprint from both protester's and police dead would be a dramatic blow.

[10ebbor10]

Probably. Though I'm afraid those bullets might no longer exist. I mean, either party, if responsible, will make those things disappear.

((Besides, it's not that hard to divide the tasks between different snipers.))

[ivze]

I have one last argument, I would like to tell. Yanukovich's strategy was to avoid any shooting. It was not until the very end, as Berkut was given any firearms. Yanukovich understood well, that a massacre on Maidan would be completely against him.

Why, why on Earth would he give an order to kill ordinary protesters, as the results of that shooting are certainly the end of his presidency.

[Knit tie]

But finding some bullets with the same riffle imprint from both protester's and police dead would be a dramatic blow.

That's actually quite possible. What if the snipers were a part of some violently militant ultranationalist group that viewed both sides as enemies? There was infighting in the soviet resistance during the WW2, why can't there be some in the ukrainian opposition?

[Pnx]

Why, why on Earth would he give an order to kill ordinary protesters, as the results of that shooting are certainly the end of his presidency.

The tricky thing about appeals to intelligence, is that you're assuming the other person is acting intelligently.

EDIT: Also even if he personally didn't order it, someone else down the chain of command that he put there might have.

[PanH]

I have one last argument, I would like to tell. Yanukovich's strategy was to avoid any shooting. It was not until the very end, as Berkut was given any firearms. Yanukovich understood well, that a massacre on Maidan would be completely against him.

Why, why on Earth would he give an order to kill ordinary protesters, as the results of that shooting are certainly the end of his presidency.

There's plenty of cases were violently suppressing protesters works. Plus, there's no guarantee that he acted rationally. I mean, his presidency wouldn't have lasted long unless he managed to suppress the protests. He was probably desperate.

[XXSockXX]

I have one last argument, I would like to tell. Yanukovich's strategy was to avoid any shooting. It was not until the very end, as Berkut was given any firearms. Yanukovich understood well, that a massacre on Maidan would be completely against him.

Why, why on Earth would he give an order to kill ordinary protesters, as the results of that shooting are certainly the end of his presidency.

Currently we don't know, we can only speculate. It is quite possible that Yanukovych ordered it.
There is the rumour that it was Russian agents, not Yanukovych's people, who did the shooting. (Supposedly to have the situation escalate to have a cause for invasion). That is just a conspiracy theory too, but you see, people can speculate both ways.

What we know is just this: By far the most people who got shot are protesters. Witnesses (protesters, doctors and journalists) claim they saw police snipers. Some policemen got shot too, but it is possible that some protesters got their hands on sniper rifles.
That is the most obvious explanation, anything else we can not know without further investigation. That would require ballistic evidence, forensic evidence might not be enough. (Because if it is just the same type of rifle, not the exact same rifle, that doesn't mean much)

[Knit tie]

So far the biggest trend in this conflist seems to be assuming that the opposing side is composed entirely of violent radicals. I see it done on the media constantly, while in reality both pro-russians and maidanians are mostly moderate and want peaceful resolution.

I mean, 100 people died during the protests, yes. But what truly is 100 people? There could've been an uprising instead, with deaths numbering in the thousands. But instead, all there was is a peaceful demonstration.

And likewise, the current invasion is by far the most bloodless one ever seen in the history if Russia, and a lot of pro-russians are keen to keep it this way.

So if we disregard the extremist groups that are invariably present in each conflict, this whole situation is one of the most peaceful political clusterfucks in history.

Ivze, what do you think?

[ivze]

Ivze, what do you think?

Yet 100 dead people are too much to call the situation peaceful.
On the contrary, what is happening in Crimea, IS peaceful, as even during sieges of pro-Ukrainian military bases by pro-Russian military forces no one has died yet.

[ivze]

Some nice images. Do not consider them as an argument =)
http://weirdrussia.com/2014/03/02/polite-people-meme/