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[gogis]

The foreign diplomats were involved to stop the two sides from starting to kill each other. That's...pretty normal. I'm tempted to make a cynical comment, but you really seem not to know.

You can't be serious here or you just blatantly ignorant. Russians and Ukrainians is not ever ever like muslim/jews angry-angry. Actually saying "starting to kill each other" is just shows how unaware you are. Out of my 30+ coworkers I have 4 ukrainians (not just bloodline, effectively, right now, Ukrainian citizens). I am going to lunch with some of them just tomorrow. There is not going to be bloodshed. Separate country? Anti russian goverment? Nothing new. Fine. Tension for ages. Racial jokes, all the time.  But what you just said? Thats such an ignorance...

You were talking about the Nuland phone call, about foreign diplomats in Ukraine, when Yanukovych was still in power, threatened to use violence against the protesters and ultimately did, which killed up to 100 people. That was what the diplomats tried to prevent, that was what foreign involvement was about at that time.
It was not about Russians and Ukrainians at all, that is a different issue now. Not sure if you don't understand me or are deliberately mishearing or mixing up things.

I hear what you saying, I am surprised you didnt got the hints (part of this is my lingual inefficiency for which I am sorry), but you can call this either
- honest interference of diplomats to stop bloodshed
- direct agenda to cause bloodshed via diplomatic channels, causing anticonstitunional coup using ~already named~ puppets to inflict instability in region, to establish NATO there and bomb this fucking communists to the ground already.

You see how 2nd sounds crazy? Well, it's not anymore. Amount of people believing it is staggering. And it's scary.
And stop calling facts things you read from one sided source. I read both sides and I dont believe both. I think both Russia and West is so full of bullshit right now, so I am going to stick to my gutfeeling, really.

[Sheb]

What do you read in the Nuland video to support point 2?

[gogis]

Gogis... I'm just, sort of getting the feeling that either your English is not so good, or you are getting very emotional. Either way, you are communicating really poorly - it is very hard to understand what you are saying, and you don't seem to be understanding what others are saying. Please, slow down, chill a little bit, and put some more time into thinking about how to say what you want to say and interpreting responses.

I know it's a fast-moving thread, and it's tempting to just bang something out, but we'll be a lot better off if we're actually talking with each other instead of past each other.

Russia and Europe and US were involved for the same exact reason.

I can accept that you think none of them should have been involved, since they were all foreign countries and Ukraine should handle it's own problems (if that's what you believe?), but that isn't what happened.

Or do you think Russia should have been involved, but not Europe or the USA? And if so, why?

Sorry, my english is obviously suboptimal. I actually tend to understand, but probably form my sentences and thoughts incorrectly. Most likely.
Okay, here I am going to tell what most russians thinks about situtation regarding Russia/Ukraine
- Crimea is defenitely russian region, historicaly or not. It was once conquered or most likely actually liberated by Catherine. I am not going to comment on that, it's likely just a majority thinking thing.
- Nobody or almost nobody care for the rest of Ukraine. Obviously Ukranians in Russia have their thoughts but I dont ask (it's very touchy topic)
- Very right wing people very fond on all that Kiev-Kievan Rus thing. I dont really care, but for me it's make sense.

Thats about it. Thats why *my* circle thinks that foreign peacekeeping is *not their business* here. It's thought mostly as the inner thing, it's have nothing to do with former USSR or authoritharin Putin tendencies. Just not their businies, thats all. Thats why across the globe Nulandgate was such a bullshit and surprise.

[Dutchling]

Well, too bad Ukraine is a sovereign nation. Russia has as much right to invade as the US has. Or Liechtenstein for that matter.

[GlyphGryph]

But you are okay with Russian's engaging in Foreign Peacekeeping there?

(Note: They are by no means limiting themselves to Crimea, and have moved into the rest of the Ukraine)

Crimea is NOT a part of Russia, it is part of Ukraine. Russian presence there is the definition of Foreign Intervention.

[Sheb]

Really, they moved out of Crimea? Didn't see that.

[XXSockXX]

I hear what you saying, I am surprised you didnt got the hints (part of this is my lingual inefficiency for which I am sorry), but you can call this either
- honest interference of diplomats to stop bloodshed
- direct agenda to cause bloodshed via diplomatic channels, causing anticonstitunional coup using ~already named~ puppets to inflict instability in region, to establish NATO there and bomb this fucking communists to the ground already.

You see how 2nd sounds crazy? Well, it's not anymore. Amount of people believing it is staggering. And it's scary.
And stop calling facts things you read from one sided source. I read both sides and I dont believe both. I think both Russia and West is so full of bullshit right now, so I am going to stick to my gutfeeling, really.

It's ok if your English isn't perfect, we just have to be careful to avoid misunderstandings.

I do believe in 1, and I don't get my news from one-sided sources. 2 is the point of view Russian media present, I have no reason to believe it.
I can't tell you what you should think, if you want to stick to your gutfeeling, then do that. However, since you describe yourself as apolitical, you might not be that familiar with how politics and diplomacy work. So maybe do consider that before you start believing in conspiracy theories.

Thats why *my* circle thinks that foreign peacekeeping is *not their business* here. It's thought mostly as the inner thing, it's have nothing to do with former USSR or authoritharin Putin tendencies. Just not their businies, thats all. Thats why across the globe Nulandgate was such a bullshit and surprise.

That's just an example of how diplomacy and foreign relations normally work. If you are otherwise not that interested in politics, maybe that is news to you, but it really is not unusual at all.

[GlyphGryph]

Actually, I've heard mixed reports about the "no longer just in Crimea" thing, so don't trust me on that.

[gogis]

What do you read in the Nuland video to support point 2?

Pro-Russia goverment resources i.e. like this ones with leaked Klitchko letters. All that shit. I dont trust that shit at all, I dont trust Putin govmnt a single bit, but after Georgia and all kind of utter nonsense I saw I dont trust western media at all as well. Right now for me all that sources is a bullshit so I try to intersect and do wild guesses.
Real problem is that *this* thread is full of of latter case. I looked up most links and in half of them is pure insanity. And then posters say it's "interesting". And I feel sad panda aftewards. Cruel world, yea.

[Helgoland]

Does anyone have a link on that Turkey mobilization bit? It turned up a couple of pages back...

[GlyphGryph]

Not sure how reliable this is:
http://www.unian.net/politics/893369-djemilev-turtsiya-obeschaet-vmeshatsya-v-konflikt-v-kryimu-esli-budet-ugroza-tataram.html
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/politics/2014/03/turkey-concern-crimea-ukraine-crisis-tartars.html#

Also, it looks like I misinterpreted a translated article on the moving out of Crimea thing.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

I hear what you saying, I am surprised you didnt got the hints (part of this is my lingual inefficiency for which I am sorry), but you can call this either
- honest interference of diplomats to stop bloodshed
- direct agenda to cause bloodshed via diplomatic channels, causing anticonstitunional coup using ~already named~ puppets to inflict instability in region, to establish NATO there and bomb this fucking communists to the ground already.

You see how 2nd sounds crazy? Well, it's not anymore. Amount of people believing it is staggering. And it's scary.
And stop calling facts things you read from one sided source. I read both sides and I dont believe both. I think both Russia and West is so full of bullshit right now, so I am going to stick to my gutfeeling, really.

Dude,
A. The number of people who believe something has no bearing on it's truthfulness. There's a correlation, but there was once a time when the majority opinion was that the world was flat. Which was wrong.
B. We cite our sources, no matter how 'one-sided' they seem, so that others can read for themselves and /also/ to fact-check ourselves.

We don't trust (all of) the western media either, and not all of us find all the sources listed as interesting.



-------------
@the onion

Ukrainian-Russian Tensions Dividing U.S. Citizens Along Ignorant, Apathetic Lines

“The very real threat of a Russia-Ukraine war has completely polarized the general public, pitting two deeply entrenched blocs against one another: those who have absolutely no clue what they’re talking about and those who couldn’t care less,” said Pew spokesman Andrew Collins

My favorite is

“This is not a distinctly regional or socioeconomic split, either. We’re seeing local workplaces, friends, even families ripped in two by their desire to either ignore the whole thing completely or spout an inane, half-witted opinion on it like they’re some geopolitical expert.”

(@gogis, this is satire, in case it's confusing)

[Mictlantecuhtli]

- Crimea is defenitely russian region, historicaly or not. It was once conquered or most likely actually liberated by Catherine. I am not going to comment on that, it's likely just a majority thinking thing.

... Right...

Does anyone have a link on that Turkey mobilization bit? It turned up a couple of pages back...

http://www.todayszaman.com/news-340679-turkey-says-crimea-part-of-ukraine.html

Turkey sounds serious, too.

[Sheb]

Maybe you didn't understand me: what section of the Nuland video transcript support interpretation 2?

[XXSockXX]

Actually, I've heard mixed reports about the "no longer just in Crimea" thing, so don't trust me on that.

Pro-Russian protesters have taken control of government buildings in Donetsk and there are clashes in other places.
Russian troops and (what is described as) pro-Russian militias (probably really Russian troops too for the most part) are still only in Crimea AFAIK.

Does anyone have a link on that Turkey mobilization bit? It turned up a couple of pages back...

Here's another one. "Mobilization" isn't used in the military meaning here though, it's supposed to express the urgency of the issue for Turkey. So it's not as serious as it sounds.