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[Dutchling]

a positive kind of (...) nationalism

That's a thing now?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

a positive kind of (...) nationalism

That's a thing now?

Owlbread talks a lot about founding a kind of civic nationalism that focuses on the self-improvement of a nation rather than the plain assertion of its superiority.

[Owlbread]

Owlbread talks a lot about founding a kind of civic nationalism that focuses on the self-improvement of a nation rather than the plain assertion of its superiority.

This. It's also the kind that, on paper at least, allows anyone to become an American no matter where they come from, what they believe or who they love. This is important to keep in mind in addition to the essential principle outlined neatly by MSH. You could argue that a true Eurasian Federation would provide a better vehicle for that than a more stripped down, "Russian" Russia, but I think the whole construct carries far too much Imperial baggage and we're far better taking things back to square one. Smaller countries tend to work better in this regard anyway.

I feel that the world still has a lot of very old, long-standing national issues it needs to just work through. The old Imperial borders are still around, some weaker or firmer than others. Once the small nations that remain under the control of others become independent again and the world returns to a more natural state I think we can all concentrate on our own problems without baggage or national conflict.

[Avis-Mergulus]

Okay, I feel that this place is making me worse.

First of all, if you think the so called "right sector" - a bunch of thugs and bullies with a God complex - is going to stand up to actual soldiers, then you think many things. But I really hope we don't get to test this hypothesis, because at this point Ukraine can stop clinging to places it has no right to and let Crimea go - to Russia or wherever, I do not care - or it can continue to cling to its precious nationalism, which is founded on Russophobia and a somber remembrance of perceived wrongs - and we will have ourselves a war which will harm everybody, period. I will wait to see how things develop, because I feel that all that could be said is said.

P.S for UR: When the Maidan government got what they wanted, they issued a proclamation on the notes of: "We're all happy-happy now, so let's put the guns down". Guess who didn't listen.

P.S for Owlbread: While I do not believe in "positive nationalism", I respect your right to. I would just like to point out that I am by no means motivated by nationalism - just a heartfelt dislike of the government in Kiev and an unwillingness to let it continue its assimilation program against people who also dislike it. If you listen to UR, I'm probably a guy sitting in front a TV in Vladivostok somewhere, ranting about "Russian right". I am not. My grandfather has worked all his life in Crimea, and my father did too in his youth. I come to visit my grandfather every summer, and I have lived for two years in Sevastopol and for half a year in Sudak. I have ears and eyes. I was there just last August. I have reasons to say nobody there likes the government of mainland Ukraine, and that was in "pro-Russian" Yanukovich's time. Imagine now!

This is what I have to say.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

P.S for Owlbread: While I do not believe in "positive nationalism", I respect your right to. I would just like to point out that I am by no means motivated by nationalism - just a heartfelt dislike of the government in Kiev and an unwillingness to let it continue its assimilation program against people who also dislike it.

Of course, positive nationalism wouldn't give you flimsy reasoning to invade sovereign countries.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

is going to stand up to actual soldiers, then you think many things.

Partisans are partisans. Many will die...
You may not believe that Russian will get Afghanistan for years in Ukraine... But that exactly what will happen.

If my country will be occupied, I will try to take out Russian soldier or two given a chance.  Hopefully they'll not expect any danger from a guy in a wheelchair. You may think it is a bravado or joke. I don't care

[Comrade P.]

It'd be much more telling if entire crews/ships defected. It's no surprise there are Russophiles in the ranks, even this high.

Google for Hetman Sahaydachny, the flagship of Ukrainian Fleet. It raised russian naval flag (Andrew's flag, Andreevsky flag). Will add some links when find those in English.

Edit: Even Wikipedia knows.
Edit #2: One more link

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Google for Getman Sagaydachny, the flagship of Ukrainian Fleet. It raised russian naval flag

One of epic fails of Russian propaganda. Getman Sagaydachny is not even in Sevastopol like they claimed. And that fake is two days old.

[Comrade P.]

Who cares where it is. It is an ideological matter.

Edit: and today your chief commander of fleet swore to serve to Crimean people and ordered all your navy to do the same or sign out, by the way. Freshest.

Edit #2: I did not stated it was in Sevastopol when it raised St. Andrew's flag. Neither did our brainwashing media. It was somewhere else, I am not sure where for certain, but far from Ukraine.

[burningpet]

One of the things i am not sure of, is how would Ukraine survive without the russian gas, if things really start to escalate. guess its a good thing summer is coming.

And people stopped talking to me, not the guy who fantasize about killing russians. next thing you guys do is justify it by calling him a brave freedom fighter.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Who cares where it is. It is an ideological matter.

It never happened, so what ideological matter here? If you claim it's happened - Go on, provide real proof.

today your chief commander of fleet swore to serve to Crimean people and ordered all your navy to do that or sign out, by the way. Freshest.

Do you even read the thread? I posted about that traitor earlier. I hope he will face tribunal. Point is that no one followed his order to disarm.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

And people stopped talking to me, not the guy who fantasize about killing russians. next thing you guys do is justify it by calling him a brave freedom fighter.

Russia did just kind of invade his country with the probable intent of permanently taking a chunk out of it, and probably undoing the successes of the recent protests/revolution in the rest. I'm not saying fantasizing about killing people in warfare is right, but I understand where he's coming from.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Russia did just kind of invade his country with the probable intent of permanently taking a chunk out of it, and probably undoing the successes of the recent protests/revolution in the rest. I'm not saying fantasizing about killing people in warfare is right, but I understand where he's coming from.

BP's just all sore.

[burningpet]

And people stopped talking to me, not the guy who fantasize about killing russians. next thing you guys do is justify it by calling him a brave freedom fighter.

Russia did just kind of invade his country with the probable intent of permanently taking a chunk out of it, and probably undoing the successes of the recent protests/revolution in the rest. I'm not saying fantasizing about killing people in warfare is right, but I understand where he's coming from.

The justification begins.

[Avis-Mergulus]

P.S for Owlbread: While I do not believe in "positive nationalism", I respect your right to. I would just like to point out that I am by no means motivated by nationalism - just a heartfelt dislike of the government in Kiev and an unwillingness to let it continue its assimilation program against people who also dislike it.

Of course, positive nationalism wouldn't give you flimsy reasoning to invade sovereign countries.

Please, could you stop repeating the same thing over and over like it's going to change anything and actually read my posts whole, not just the bits which give you a flimsy reason to accuse me of nationalism? I'm starting to think we're not having a calm and cool progressive discussion here. My reasoning is as flimsy or un-flimsy as any; I just have a wish, is all.

I hope it does not come to war, and I want no part of West Ukraine. I also do not wish to have a fight with anybody on this forum. This sudden intrusion of real life into my entirely happy foreign relations disturbs me. That is all.

Brb, sleep.