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Author Topic: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread  (Read 310882 times)

Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1380 on: March 02, 2014, 11:27:56 am »

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Why are the far-right radicals refusing to disarm, then, even after a direct order from the new government?
Good news for you. - Right Sector is forming guerrilla squads right now, with close cooperation with Ukrainian Army. At least that is what the leader of Right Sector said and our government never denied that

Before you ask - No, Right Sector still doesn't plan operations in Crimea.
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

scrdest

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1381 on: March 02, 2014, 11:29:36 am »

Uh, USSR totally was a nation. What was united by ideology was USSR + satellites (East Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and the rest), or USSR-led organizations like Warsaw Pact.

And USSR nationalism was a thing ever since Stalin.
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Owlbread

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1382 on: March 02, 2014, 11:32:52 am »

There can be no Soviet nationalism because the Soviet Union was not a nation. Fanaticism, maybe, but not nationalism.

This is untrue. At its conception the Soviet Union was not really a nation, it was a Union of nations. After Stalin came to power however he changed this as a man seeking to create a powerful state he knew that this would be untenable. He created a new nation as part of his ideology - "Socialism in one country". The USSR, according to Stalin, was one country. One nation. It suited him that way, and it suited his successors. The result was that a Soviet identity was cultivated (a Russian identity for all intents and purposes) and with it came a kind of strange Soviet nationalism that obliterated the national identities that were there before. See Belarus, Eastern Ukraine etc.

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The Union was united by communist ideology first, and Russian culture (whatever that was after our Civil War) second.

This is incorrect again. Communist ideology simply doesn't come into it as an independent thing, by the end of the century Communism and Soviet nationalism/culture were indistinguishable after having been merged with a strange blend of Eurasian-Russian nationalism. You can see the results of that unholy marriage in the current Russian Communist Party who are basically just red Nationalists.

The USSR didn't exactly make things any clearer by professing to oppose "nationalism", but that's because it suited the establishment in the USSR to show their union as being in the right, morally speaking. It helps keep up their Communist credentials even though anyone worth their salt could see that those credentials were essentially in tatters by the time Stalin was bringing back the Orthodox Church and ending the international revolution. It's very similar in the UK where British Unionist groups profess to oppose nationalism but never stop banging on about what a great country Britain is and how they don't want to see it broken up, purely for emotional reasons.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 11:40:08 am by Owlbread »
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GreatJustice

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1383 on: March 02, 2014, 11:39:58 am »

Well, Yanukovitch was pro-Russian. At least more than the rest of the political spectrum in Ukraine.

Yanukovitch was absolutely not pro-Russian, he was an opportunist backed by certain oligarchs, specifically those running the industrial concerns in the Donbass. These oligarchs were basically in favour of integration with the EU, since they wanted another place to make money off of. Thus, these oligarchs preferred Yanukovitch to any Western crook (like Tymoshenko) because they basically had him under their thumbs, and they preferred him to any real pro-Russian leader because they didn't want to be forced into the Eurasian Customs Union, which would deprive them of the money they could make from the far wealthier West.

So Yanukovitch basically bankrolled a propaganda campaign in favour of European integration which only began succeeding recently. He (and his backers) figured that this would work well for all involved; the Western Ukrainians that dislike Yanukovitch tended to be in favour of EU integration anyway, the oligarchs would get their European market access, and the Eastern Ukrainians, well, while they would be basically screwed over, it's not like they'd have anyone else to turn to. Obviously Yanukovitch was very much in favour of European integration originally. But then something went wrong.

Specifically, the Europeans weren't so keen on Yanukovitch, since he wasn't a reliable pro-Western leader. So instead of sending a deal he expected, they sent a basically unacceptable deal that required Ukrainian industry comply with EU regulations, including any regulations passed in the future. Free trade with Europe in of itself would be damaging to Ukrainian industry in the near term, but the Donbass oligarchs figured that they would still be able to benefit overall. However, with the regulations included, Ukrainian industry would be utterly incapable of competing with the highly developed Western industries in place and would be utterly destroyed, to the benefit of absolutely no one. Obviously Yanukovitch couldn't accept this deal, but unfortunately for him he had propagandized so hard in favour of integration that turning against it led to outrage. At this point, he was doomed; he could accept the deal after all, but it would wreck the Ukrainian economy enough to turn even the integrationists at Lviv against the EU (and, by extension, him), and his oligarch friends would be ruined too. He could join the Customs Union, but the Donbass oligarchs would lose access to their European markets entirely, which was basically unacceptable. So he was forced to wait things out, sandwiched between Putin (who would have been okay with Yanukovitch as a puppet, but not as a puppet of largely anti-Russian oligarchs) and the EU (who were waiting for a more reliably liberal leader to take over to control), without the support needed to stay in power. That's basically why there weren't very many anti-Maidan protests in the East, as Yanukovitch wasn't even remotely pro-Russian.

Of course, now that Yanukovitch is gone, the pro-Russian Ukrainians have some options available, and obviously they don't favour EU integration in the slightest. So even discounting Putin's intervention in the short run, in the long run separatist sentiment is sure to run strong as the effects of integration make themselves known.
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Owlbread

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1384 on: March 02, 2014, 11:41:16 am »

I tend to disagree with the term "separatism" in this context. Separatism implies a desire for independence, or more generally breaking away. In this case though pro-Russian Ukrainians seem to want to join Russia more than anything else, so I would prefer the term "Irredentism".
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1385 on: March 02, 2014, 12:25:15 pm »


First confirmed defection - commander of Ukrainian Navy switched sides, no info on how officers under his command reacted on that...
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

10ebbor10

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1386 on: March 02, 2014, 12:28:17 pm »

Snip
Except that there was no way that Ukraine, or anyone else really would ever get access to the European Internal market without needing to follow it's regulations, both past and present. Sure, sometimes some nations get exceptions, but those are often only temporary, and the EEG is very reserved with those.
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Avis-Mergulus

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1387 on: March 02, 2014, 01:07:20 pm »


First confirmed defection - commander of Ukrainian Navy switched sides, no info on how officers under his command reacted on that...

When the commander of your entire Navy defects, it's a... rather telling event, I think.
I do not know why are you so happy about the so-called "right sector" forming guerilla squads after refusing to disarm after being ordered to by the government they put in place - it does not do your claims of democracy any good.

Owlbread, people in the USSR were shot for Russian nationalism - even top government officials. Of course, I am not arguing that an all-obliterating ideology was enforced. But it was enforced on the Russians, too. Our traditionally-flavored nationalists all immigrated when they could. "Red nationalism", as you term it, was very, very strange.
Also UR, the correct possessive form is "Russian". Learn you some European.
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Digital Hellhound

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1388 on: March 02, 2014, 01:10:47 pm »

It'd be much more telling if entire crews/ships defected. It's no surprise there are Russophiles in the ranks, even this high.
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Russia is simply taking an anti-Fascist stance against European Nazi products, they should be applauded. ¡No parmesan!

Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1389 on: March 02, 2014, 01:13:00 pm »

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When the commander of your entire Navy defects, it's a... rather telling event, I think.
No one followed his orders. We got new commander. That one will face tribunal or live in Russia. No problem.

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I do not know why are you so happy about the so-called "right sector" forming guerilla squads after refusing to disarm after being ordered to by the government they put in place - it does not do your claims of democracy any good.
They are not ordered by the government to disarm. Government is opening  army stockpiles for them. 
If you haven't noticed we are getting ready for defending against a full scale invasion. And having guerrillas is essential because we have no good army to stop Russian war machine in conventional warfare
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 01:14:42 pm by Ukrainian Ranger »
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

burningpet

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1390 on: March 02, 2014, 01:21:15 pm »

burningpet stop that shit. The Rada voted Yanukovitch down 328 - 0. No gunmen was in parliament during the vote. Expect if Rada members are neo-nazis, what you say doesn't make any sense.

The fact Yanukovych was clearly heading behind bars for his "atrocious mass murder spree" along with anyone cooperating with him had nothing to do with that vote. right.

And yeah, some Rada members ARE self proclaimed, openly admitted neo-nazis that chose to have their IMAGE rebranded later on. this is not a debate whether this is true or not, because those are facts you know to be true, this is (was) a debate whether you choose to believe a neo-nazi turned himself a mere nationalist or just turned his image to appear a mere nationalist. we both know whats the more likely scenario of the two, so for almost every given reason, i have the right to keep calling them what they are, and what they used to call themselves - neo-nazis.

And, please, the Ukraine government was a farce during yanukovych reign, is a farce now and will continue to be a farce and nobody would have given a damn about it, if it weren't neo-nazis that help running the farce, so it has every potential, and probably will, of becoming a tragedy.

UR - So, wait, the new government are now almost-officially arming the neo-nazis?
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Sheb

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1391 on: March 02, 2014, 01:25:32 pm »

Ok, I'm not talking to burningpet anymore.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1392 on: March 02, 2014, 01:32:02 pm »

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UR - So, wait, the new government are now almost-officially arming the neo-nazis?
Looks like. So, after we kick Russian asses we'll go and occupy Israel. Get ready.
And I'll tell you a military secret, our necromancers are working on resurrecting SS and Wehrmacht soldiers that died in Ukraine during WW2

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« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 01:36:24 pm by Ukrainian Ranger »
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

burningpet

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1393 on: March 02, 2014, 01:38:29 pm »

Ok, I'm not talking to burningpet anymore.

For which reasons? calling them neo-nazis? calling the Ukraine government a farce? raising doubts about the legitimacy of a vote that was held while clearly, direct threats and actions were held against people who held certain opinions? which one is it?
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Owlbread

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1394 on: March 02, 2014, 01:44:51 pm »

Owlbread, people in the USSR were shot for Russian nationalism - even top government officials. Of course, I am not arguing that an all-obliterating ideology was enforced. But it was enforced on the Russians, too. Our traditionally-flavored nationalists all immigrated when they could. "Red nationalism", as you term it, was very, very strange.

Yes, this is because Russian nationalism was a threat to the integrity of the USSR and a threat to Soviet identity as a whole. I do not disagree. I believe that there should be a Russia, that Russia does exist and that a positive kind of Russian nationalism has been stifled by Imperialistic constructs like Eurasianism and Socialism In One Country.
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