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[burningpet]

I am also suggesting that the events in Crimea was a hostile takeover of the local government before anyone could intervene and force someone into power.

Are you suggesting that a peaceful protest gathering in the streets demanding the impeachment/resignation of a civil leader has less legitimacy than a small group of unknown militants forcing a local government to install an ideologically-aligned individual with representative powers?
It's not explicitly stated that they were forced, but we have Situation A and Situation B and it's not very hard to imagine the arrow between the two.

so you are basically saying they acted fast because they HAD to act fast?

Except they weren't peaceful protests, and actually, not so small groups of openly admitted neo-nazis militants forced the government to step down.

I really can't see a fundamental difference. in both cases democracy was not the political tool in deciding who ruled a certain piece of land and a certain group of people.

[Avis-Mergulus]

So he was an pro-Russian chunk of maybe-dirt maybe-manure floating in a crock of crap. That's mighty great.

FTFY

Sometime you get unsavory supporters. Doesn't mean they're not your supporters. Same applies for the Neo-Nazies on Maidan.

No, I mean that he was pro-Russian only in comparison to his predecessor, who all but accused us suppressing the Ukrainian national identity during WW2 (by which he meant the UPA - a bunch of actual Nazis). Yanukovich was as pro-Russian as, say, the president of Mexico is pro-Russian.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

I bet that for you anyone who is not aiming to sign annexation deal as fast as possible is not Pro-Russian

who all but accused us suppressing the Ukrainian national identity during WW2

Well, that IS what you did before, during and after WW2

[Sheb]

burningpet stop that shit. The Rada voted Yanukovitch down 328 - 0. No gunmen was in parliament during the vote. Expect if Rada members are neo-nazis, what you say doesn't make any sense.

[Avis-Mergulus]

I bet that for you anyone who is not aiming to sign annexation deal as fast as possible is not Pro-Russian

who all but accused us suppressing the Ukrainian national identity during WW2

Well, that IS what you did before, during and after WW2

Aye, could be. But Crimea is not part of "Ukrainian national identity", whatever that is.
And I repeat: Russia is not the Soviet Union.
And while we're at that, the USSR  did not suppress Ukraine specifically, despite what a few revisionists might say. It suppressed any and all nationalism within its borders, because nationalism makes empires fall apart. You might note that Russia did not even have its own communist party - the KPRF was founded right before the nineties. A guy tried to institute it before, and was shot for it - look up "Ленинградское дело."

And I mention no annexation deals. Just that Yanukovich was absolutely neutral towards Russia - and "neutral"!="pro".

E: fuck autocorrect

[Ukrainian Ranger]

It suppressed any and all nationalism within its borders

Hey! That serial killed not only your relatives but relatives of other people, too! You shouldn't be mad at him he had nothing against you

Exactly the same logic.

[Avis-Mergulus]

It suppressed any and all nationalism within its borders

Hey! That serial killed not only your relatives but relatives of other people, too! You shouldn't be mad at him he had nothing against you

Exactly the same logic.

Why are you mad at me because of what they did to the ancestors of both of us?

[Dutchling]

Xaxaxaxaxa

[Owlbread]

Aye, could be. But Crimea is not part of "Ukrainian national identity", whatever that is.
And I repeat: Russia is not the Soviet Union.
And while we're at that, the USSR  did not suppress Ukraine specifically, despite what a few revisionists might say. It suppressed any and all nationalism within its borders, because nationalism makes empires fall apart. You might note that Russia did not even have its own communist party - the KPRF was founded right before the nineties. A guy tried to institute it before, and was shot for it - look up "Ленинградское дело."

And I mention no annexation deals. Just that Yanukovich was absolutely neutral towards Russia - and "neutral"!="pro".

E: fuck autocorrect

Russia was the Soviet Union in the same way that England is the United Kingdom. For all intents and purposes they are one and the same. The USSR spoke Russian, promoted Russian Soviet language and culture as a way of uniting the ethnic groups and existed as the successor state to the Empire. In virtually every language around the world, people would say Russia colloquially and USSR in official settings.

Even if we accept that Soviet identity is different to Russian identity (which it is to a certain extent), the USSR was promoting Soviet nationalism along the same lines as certain groups affiliated with Putin promote "Eurasianism". The USSR didn't get rid of all nationalism within its borders, just the examples of it that it found threatening. Soviet nationalism was fully endorsed. Right now the Ukrainian conflict is driven by irreconcilable tensions between two Nationalist movements.

[misko27]

Xaxaxaxaxa

"When nobody was looking, Putin stole forty cakes. He took 40 cakes. That's as many as four tens. And that's terrible."

Anyway, if we could keep the personal things out, that'd be nice and civil. On a note of things soon not to be nice and civil, my mom reminded me that Ukraine and Russia share the same mission to the UN. I wonder what's going on there...

[Pnx]

Xaxaxaxaxa

Took me a second to get what was going on, it is indeed amusing.

[XXSockXX]

Besides, Russia doesn't intend to annex Crimea, they'll just install a new government in a separate satellite state.

That's what it currently seems to look like. The Crimean government now wants to hold their referendum on March 30, instead of May.
Would be one of the slightly better possible outcomes of this, but still it's probably going to be an Abchasia-like satellite state thing.

Xaxaxaxaxa

Oh, CNN...

[Sheb]

Which kinda sucks for the Crimean. Being a non-recognized state ain't fun, although at least they'll get cash from the base and stuff.

[Avis-Mergulus]

Aye, could be. But Crimea is not part of "Ukrainian national identity", whatever that is.
And I repeat: Russia is not the Soviet Union.
And while we're at that, the USSR  did not suppress Ukraine specifically, despite what a few revisionists might say. It suppressed any and all nationalism within its borders, because nationalism makes empires fall apart. You might note that Russia did not even have its own communist party - the KPRF was founded right before the nineties. A guy tried to institute it before, and was shot for it - look up "Ленинградское дело."

And I mention no annexation deals. Just that Yanukovich was absolutely neutral towards Russia - and "neutral"!="pro".

E: fuck autocorrect

Russia was the Soviet Union in the same way that England is the United Kingdom. For all intents and purposes they are one and the same. The USSR spoke Russian, promoted Russian Soviet language and culture as a way of uniting the ethnic groups and existed as the successor state to the Empire. In virtually every language around the world, people would say Russia colloquially and USSR in official settings.

Even if we accept that Soviet identity is different to Russian identity (which it is to a certain extent), the USSR was promoting Soviet nationalism along the same lines as certain groups affiliated with Putin promote "Eurasianism". The USSR didn't get rid of all nationalism within its borders, just the examples of it that it found threatening. Soviet nationalism was fully endorsed. Right now the Ukrainian conflict is driven by irreconcilable tensions between two Nationalist movements.

There can be no Soviet nationalism because the Soviet Union was not a nation. Fanaticism, maybe, but not nationalism. The Union was united by communist ideology first, and Russian culture (whatever that was after our Civil War) second.

burningpet stop that shit. The Rada voted Yanukovitch down 328 - 0. No gunmen was in parliament during the vote. Expect if Rada members are neo-nazis, what you say doesn't make any sense.

Why are the far-right radicals refusing to disarm, then, even after a direct order from the new government?

[Sheb]

I don't know. Maybe they don't trust it. What's your point?