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Author Topic: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread  (Read 310866 times)

burningpet

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1350 on: March 02, 2014, 09:50:37 am »

But Mict... they did?

Quote
Aksyonov was voted in by the Crimean parliament on Thursday after pro-Russia gunmen seized the building and as tensions soared over Crimea's resistance to the new authorities in Kiev, who took office this week.

Occupying the place and ousting the representatives. Replaced with puppet in minutes.

Sound exactly like what happened in kiev.

Except the protests were conducted over a far longer period of time, always stated that they wanted rid of Yanukovich and wouldn't have stormed or seized anything if Yanukovich stepped down. Instead, he left and a provisional government was put into place in the interim before elections.

This happened in a very short time span, didn't give anyone a chance to step down, and there is no provisional government, just a Pro-Russian guy.

Yep. Exactly the same.

Are you seriously suggesting that because they were making threats before actions, they have legitimacy?
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miljan

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1351 on: March 02, 2014, 09:54:03 am »

So I guess the thing to do is just park NATO forces in Kiev because it's always better to do shit first without asking about it at the UN Security Council because it'll get insta-veto'd anyway? Like Russia was doing for any sort of UN response in Ukraine?
Heh, well if USA and nato can do it, as they did in the past why not russia?
You better not give a examples of nato because they already broke it long time ago.
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Sheb

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1352 on: March 02, 2014, 09:54:46 am »

Well, the government in Kiev was put in place by the parliament elected in 2012. No gunmen in parliament during the vote too. As for government troopers not intervening, well the whole situation was a mess. Also, you keep forgetting the fact that ~40% of the Crimean population doesn't identify as Russian. As UR pointed out, the "let's join Russia party" had less than 2% of the vote.

Chaoswhiz: are you aware that prior to 2010, Ukraine's president wasn't Yanukovitch?
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Sergarr

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #1353 on: March 02, 2014, 09:56:42 am »

can I start worrying about the impending world war 3 or not

cuz i have a bad feeling about this

Civil war is looming on the horizon, but unless Russia and the West send troops to Ukraine, there won't be World War III.

(I hope so)
welp
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 10:00:21 am by Sergarr »
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Sheb

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1354 on: March 02, 2014, 09:58:26 am »

Also, the Crimean PM guy was voted in by 54 deputies out of 6 presents and 100 total. He'sgot legitimacy even though the legal ground is a bit shaky (same as with the government in Kiev, really). Still, it doesn't tell us anything about what the Crimean actually wants.
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Avis-Mergulus

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1355 on: March 02, 2014, 10:01:11 am »

Well, the government in Kiev was put in place by the parliament elected in 2012. No gunmen in parliament during the vote too. As for government troopers not intervening, well the whole situation was a mess. Also, you keep forgetting the fact that ~40% of the Crimean population doesn't identify as Russian. As UR pointed out, the "let's join Russia party" had less than 2% of the vote.

Chaoswhiz: are you aware that prior to 2010, Ukraine's president wasn't Yanukovitch?

Yes, but a large portion does not identify as Ukrainian, either, and not everybody who identifies as Ukrainian supports the Maidan guys - "vocal minority" claims are a double-edged blade, so I believe.

can I start worrying about the impending world war 3 or not

cuz i have a bad feeling about this

Civil war is looming on the horizon, but unless Russia and the West send troops to Ukraine, there won't be World War III.

(I hope so)
welp
I am also afraid.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1356 on: March 02, 2014, 10:03:50 am »

Hi, I'mGreatWyrmGold, and I'm replying to a bunch of posts.

((WHAT THE FUCK?))
Oh. Shit. I've been meaning to pay more attention to the news...
The bright side is, if Reuters is to be believed, it doesn't sound like it'll be a huge thing. Russia's keeping itself as Europe's red-headed stepchild, and obviously it sucks for the Ukraine, but at least it's not likely to turn into a world-burning confrontation.

It's complicated because Russia has nukes.
Actually, it's simpler than it seems. After all, Putin would have to be a complete idiot to use nukes on the Ukraine without provocation. Already, it's coming off badly; imagine what a couple nuclear warheads would do to Russia's international relations. Best case scenario, it's ostracized and gets embargoes from several major nations; worst case scenario, World War Three.
Now, if the Ukraine had nukes, there could be a problem...but it hasn't been so long since the Cold War that people have forgotten about mutually assured destruction, and anyways the Ukraine sent its nukes to be dismantled in Russia way back in the Nineties; it's been almost two decades since Ukraine has had a nuclear weapon in its borders.

as far as we know of,he does control some very remote places with minorities in them.
As far as we know of, he is actually a Vulcan spy.
Citations or it didn't happen.

Well shit. Looks like theres gonna be a landwar in Asia/Eastern Europe.
Joke's been made. Probably in every city where people have seen The Princess Bride.


The he referred to Putin, not my dad.
I hope this teaches you to be careful with your pronouns.

Quote
Also, this must be the first time in history that a country waited for a couple of days for the enemy to really get into place before mobilizing and saying "Hey, this is war you know!".
We're out of practice as far as real war goes.
Isn't the modern world great?

(Note: My use of "real war" is in contrast to "guerrilla war" and the like, which are more like serieses of opposing small missions than the big-battle wars everyone thinks of when they hear "war," and is not in  any way intended to glorify or promote such conflicts.)
(Note: Isn't it a bit odd to say "guerrilla war" when "guerrilla" means "little war"?)

According to Russians with no sense of humor, they're the Belarus equivalent of bread.
...I don't get it. Is that one of those insulting jokes neighboring nations tend to have about each other, if so what are they implying, and if not...then huh?

I always find it amusing how the people most willing to violate a country's sovereignty are hyper nationalists.
You say that like it's a bad thing. If you think nationalists = nazis, you're wrong.
I think he's saying it's ironic, not that nationalists are evil.

Chaoswizkid: I never said that many=majority. I merely pointed out that the idea is not absurd. When you take a government order to "defend your country", you defend their idea of what constitutes it.
...or else you're just defending your homeland, your home, your family. My father always said that the invader is at a disadvantage from that--men will fight as hard as they can and retreat less readily if they are fighting to protect their hometown than just on orders.
And the Nazis were kind of invading Russia at the time.

Also, new plan. US should support the tiny Pro-51st-State political movement in Australia, let them take power of part of the country and then park our troops there because they asked for us.
Don't be silly. Australia is already divided into states, we'd let them keep those divisions.
But yeah. Sounds like a decent enough analogy.

But Mict... they did?
Quote
Aksyonov was voted in by the Crimean parliament on Thursday after pro-Russia gunmen seized the building and as tensions soared over Crimea's resistance to the new authorities in Kiev, who took office this week.
Occupying the place and ousting the representatives. Replaced with puppet in minutes.
My first thought was "I wonder if that's a world record."
I feel ashamed.

You know, Russia could have used that thing called diplomacy. But nooooo.
Like - Gather UN security council, provide proofs that Russians in Crimea are in danger and ask for UN mission  to enter it and initiate referendum under their supervision.
Bah, UN. Who uses that for anything any more?
Note: I'm being sarcastic.

I am also afraid.
I have enough faith in Putin that he won't shoot himself in the foot badly enough to trigger World War Three. Short of nuking the Ukraine, I'm not sure what would start something major.
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Chaoswizkid

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1357 on: March 02, 2014, 10:06:12 am »

But Mict... they did?

Quote
Aksyonov was voted in by the Crimean parliament on Thursday after pro-Russia gunmen seized the building and as tensions soared over Crimea's resistance to the new authorities in Kiev, who took office this week.

Occupying the place and ousting the representatives. Replaced with puppet in minutes.

Sound exactly like what happened in kiev.

Except the protests were conducted over a far longer period of time, always stated that they wanted rid of Yanukovich and wouldn't have stormed or seized anything if Yanukovich stepped down. Instead, he left and a provisional government was put into place in the interim before elections.

This happened in a very short time span, didn't give anyone a chance to step down, and there is no provisional government, just a Pro-Russian guy.

Yep. Exactly the same.

Are you seriously suggesting that because they were making threats before actions, they have legitimacy?

I am suggesting that the goal was not a hostile takeover of the government to install whoever they wanted. The goal was to be very hostile to one guy and the individuals closest to him, and once he was gone to hold elections.

I am also suggesting that the events in Crimea was a hostile takeover of the local government before anyone could intervene and force someone into power.

Are you suggesting that a peaceful protest gathering in the streets demanding the impeachment/resignation of a civil leader doesn't have more legitimacy than a small group of unknown militants forcing a local government to install an ideologically-aligned individual with representative powers?
It's not explicitly stated that they were forced, but we have Situation A and Situation B and it's not very hard to imagine the arrow between the two.

Chaoswhiz: are you aware that prior to 2010, Ukraine's president wasn't Yanukovitch?

Hold up. Okay, no, and so my foot gets placed in my mouth, but I had assumed so because:
Yanukovich was Pro-Russian-influence
And
Soviet-era industry reliant on Russian market still existed
And
Soviet-era communist artifacts remained in Ukraine until his ousting.

I can only assume further, then, that whoever Yanukovich's predecessor was wasn't really that different?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 10:15:51 am by Chaoswizkid »
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Sheb

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1358 on: March 02, 2014, 10:12:59 am »

Actually he was pro-European, placed into power after Yanukovitch was ousted in the Orange Revolution of 2004.

Avis-Mergulus: Right, we don't really know what the Crimeans wants, and how much wants what. But I guess it doesn't matter, since Putin invaded already. Putin supporting Crimean government after an independence referendum? Ok. Putin invading because: not ok.

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10ebbor10

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1359 on: March 02, 2014, 10:13:31 am »

Actually, they were quite different. From 2005*-2010 the country was ruled by a more pro-western, pro-liberal government. Timoshenko and co, you know.

They didn't have it easy of course. The Party of Regions (Yanukovich) issued multiple votes of no confidence, and her government happened to coincidence with the 2008 economical crisis. Combined with the fact that the economical reforms were troubling the Soviet era economy, and the Ukrainian gas crisis in 2009, they eventually succeeded. 

*Orange revolution

((Note: might not be accurate. This is what I kind-off remember.))
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Sheb

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1360 on: March 02, 2014, 10:16:34 am »

Even more complicated because they had another, less presidential constitution back then. Plus, Yanukovitch was PM in 2006-2007.

Anyway, at least the mobilization and stuff should prevent Russia from getting into the rest of Ukraine. It's one thing to infiltrate Crimea when no one is looking, another to step into mainland Crimea when the army is ready and the message is clear that Russian troops getting in will be shot.
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Avis-Mergulus

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1361 on: March 02, 2014, 10:20:41 am »

Please, please stop referring to Yanukovich as pro-Russian. It makes me want to die of shame.

And the Yuschenko government was as pro-liberal as my ass is green. They were pro-show and pro-whine about terrible Russia, which could not care less.

Edit: also pro big business, just like the P.I.G. now.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 10:24:05 am by Avis-Mergulus »
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Sheb

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1362 on: March 02, 2014, 10:23:43 am »

Well, Yanukovitch was pro-Russian. At least more than the rest of the political spectrum in Ukraine.
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Avis-Mergulus

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1363 on: March 02, 2014, 10:27:23 am »

Well, Yanukovitch was pro-Russian. At least more than the rest of the political spectrum in Ukraine.
So he was an ambiguous chunk of maybe-dirt maybe-manure floating in a crock of crap. That's mighty great.
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Sheb

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1364 on: March 02, 2014, 10:31:33 am »

So he was an pro-Russian chunk of maybe-dirt maybe-manure floating in a crock of crap. That's mighty great.

FTFY

Sometime you get unsavory supporters. Doesn't mean they're not your supporters. Same applies for the Neo-Nazies on Maidan.
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