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[Urist McManiac]

I guess I feel the need to ask this finally.

Why do ethnically Russian Ukrainians crave such strong ties with Russia? Do they hope to benefit economically? Do they attach greater importance to their Russian identity than their own national identity?

Well, I can't speak for the Crimeans (nor any other person than myself, for that matter) but people in Europe/the "Old World" tend to identfy themself more with their cultural/ethnical heritage than with the state they live in. I am part of a minority that is vastly different from the rest of the state in which we live and I don't know anyone who would identify himself with the state. Sure, there are people who place more emphasize on this than others, but none denies the fact that "we are not them". I can understand that this concept may be a bit harder to understand for an American, as the only thing American people have in common is their nationality, as they are descendet from people all over the Old World/Africa, and therefore tend to identify more with with the state in which they live. But as I said, I don't know who things are in Eastern Europe.

Also, I don't think Urist McManiac was really siding with pro-Russian side, but hey, I lack the witt of some other forum members so I can't really answer with a clever argument. 

I certainly am not. I was just surprised how people in this thread behaved as if they actually wanted the situation the escalate. I definitly don't support any hostile action towards a foreign state, no matter for what cause or who initated such an action.

But, sir, they just have to occupy the lands, kill the local Russian population, move Germans in, and then claim the Russians weren't the ones who owned it first. That's how it works. I love how you say 'it's more complex than u think!!!" and then go entirely on the pro-Russian side of the arguement, and hand wave the murder of the Crimean people which allows Russia to even have the completely asinine claim that 'most of the people are Russians [because we murdered the rest of them and forced them to use Russian language therefore killing their local identities]!!'.

First of all, get your history right. Russians only live in Königsberg/Kaliningrad since the end of the second World War. Before that, the region was populated by Germans and before them by baltic tribes.

And I certainly didn't go completly on the pro-Russian side, but tried to add something to the discussion which wasn't really mentioned before (as that is what I would call "discussing"). I completely agree that Ukrainians have all right to be pissed, heck, their country is getting invaded. I certainly would be more than just a bit disgruntled if this would happen to me. BUT this doesn't mean that the (West-)Ukrainian side in this conflict is automatically right.

[Sheb]

Do you have specifics? the financial state of europe is hardly an assurance for a long term success, nor the "success" of some of its coached countries is reassuring.

Russia's deal included membership of their own custom union, which is not compatible with membership of the EU.

As for success, every European country is freer and less corrupt than Russia. All but Romania/Bulgaria are also richer, and we don't have oil.

Also, I don't think anyone here (except UR maybe) is against the Crimean getting a referendum for independence. But as things stand, we don't know if they want independence, we don't know jack shit, because Putin and his Red Army 2.0 decided to cut the discussion short and invade everything.

[Avis-Mergulus]

First of all, I find recent history slightly more relevant than ancient history - that is, the fact that Crimea was part of the Ukraine just half a week ago is more relevant that it was ruled by the Soviet Union half a century ago.

And today they chose to join forces with russia. cant get any recent.

If a segment in Ukraine can just elect its own president disregarding the majority, why shouldn't any other minority do so?

I do so love it when people say things I agree with. If West Ukraine can, why not East? Because evil and dictatorship, probably, or something like that.

Alright, I'm becoming incoherent. I'll go sleep now.

Somehow, I think I'll have to read through twenty pages of text tomorrow. Oh whatever.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

First of all, get your history right. Russians only live in Königsberg/Kaliningrad since the end of the second World War. Before that, the region was populated by Germans and before them by baltic tribes.

Exactly.

That's why Germany should occupy it, murder [or otherwise illegally deport] the locals, institute German as the preferred language, abandon it, come back in 20 years after the seeds planted are grown and claim it's actually really German.

Also, I don't think anyone here (except UR maybe) is against the Crimean getting a referendum for independence. But as things stand, we don't know if they want independence, we don't know jack shit, because Putin and his Red Army 2.0 decided to cut the discussion short and invade everything.

But glorious Putin is just saving the true Crimeans [russians] from those damn Nazis, Sheb! Just look around you!

I do so love it when people say things I agree with. If West Ukraine can, why not East? Because evil and dictatorship, probably, or something like that.

Remember, they're only allowed the right to self determination if it's in line with Putin's interests. If he says annex or secede it will be done now. I like how Russians are so loose with sovereignty and then so staunchly nationalist. How'd you feel if Finland took back their lands in a similar fashion? By sending in their special forces to lock down airports/main roadways, removing the local government and then having the army come in and 'secure' the area? You'd be pretty pleased to see them recover their homelands, I'm sure.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Why the fuck does Russia have a naval base in the Ukraine?

Because "mighty" Soviet Union was so "advanced" that it had only one naval base suitable for large vessels in the Black sea. Of cause all large vessels of Soviet Black Sea Fleet should have become Ukrainian because of that... But tell that to that traitor and\or incompetent president we got after gaining our independence

As for the next tourism season, if Crimea becomes part of Russia, it will be the touristiest tourism season ever - all the people,e who have a phobia of your border control guys will show up.

Assuming I am average Russian... What to choose Sochi that got huge Olympic investments or postwar Crimea with bad (possibly postwar) infrastructure and mad (possibly waging low intensity guerrilla) Crimean Tatars? Very hard choice

And not forget that 3\4th of tourists in Crimea are Ukrainians. You really think that Russians gonna replace all that lost tourists? Hint: Ukrainians will prefer Turkey in that case, cheaper and way safer

[Comrade P.]

Do you have specifics? the financial state of europe is hardly an assurance for a long term success, nor the "success" of some of its coached countries is reassuring.

Russia's deal included membership of their own custom union, which is not compatible with membership of the EU.

As for success, every European country is freer and less corrupt than Russia. All but Romania/Bulgaria are also richer, and we don't have oil.

Also, I don't think anyone here (except UR maybe) is against the Crimean getting a referendum for independence. But as things stand, we don't know if they want independence, we don't know jack shit, because Putin and his Red Army 2.0 decided to cut the discussion short and invade everything.

Various video feed reports of people shouting "Russia! Russia!" and waving russian flags all over Crimea.  First, they set a date of referendum on 25th of may. Now, they say it is too long and set it to 30th of March.
They just want to secede from a country falling down to abyss.

[misko27]

And if you though the south slavs had problems... They still do. But this is entirely different. These are much more strategically important problems!

Of course, if Crimea wants to secede, more power to them. The can go join Russia, be Russians, whatever. My problem is Russia is doing the most basic violations of international law, using military might to take advantage of a weak state for literally no real legal reason. There are ethnic Russians there? Brighton Beach, NY is majority ethnic Russian. It used to belong to Russia? So does most territory around Russia, it's still illegal. Has there been a referendum? Yes, there was supposed to be one at the end of March. Russia can't wait for some strange reason. And of course, as it has been pointed out, that petition is by no means limited to the Crimea, but in fact calls the whole territory of Ukraine.

[Avis-Mergulus]

First of all, get your history right. Russians only live in Königsberg/Kaliningrad since the end of the second World War. Before that, the region was populated by Germans and before them by baltic tribes.

Exactly.

That's why Germany should occupy it, murder the locals, institute German as the preferred language, abandon it, come back in 20 years after the seeds planted are grown and claim it's actually really German.

I don't get it. Are you claiming Crimea was ever inhabited by an Ukrainian-speaking majority?
Or is it about the Tatars? They have no reason to love the Ukrainian government either. Besides, they are an actual minority compared to the Russian-speaking segment of the population.

And it was resettlement, not murder. Do soften your damn terminology. And what do you propose, having the Russian Army conquer Crimea, and then hand it back to whatever Tatars we can find? Sure, can do.

Why the fuck does Russia have a naval base in the Ukraine?

Because "mighty" Soviet Union was so "advanced" that it had only one naval base suitable for large vessels in the Black sea. Of cause all large vessels of Soviet Black Sea Fleet should have become Ukrainian because of that... But tell that to that traitor and\or incompetent president we got after gaining our independence

As for the next tourism season, if Crimea becomes part of Russia, it will be the touristiest tourism season ever - all the people,e who have a phobia of your border control guys will show up.

Assuming I am average Russian... What to choose Sochi that got huge Olympic investments or postwar Crimea with bad (possibly postwar) infrastructure and mad (possibly waging low intensity guerrilla) Crimean Tatars? Very hard choice

And not forget that 3\4th of tourists in Crimea are Ukrainians. You really think that Russians gonna replace all that lost tourists? Hint: Ukrainians will prefer Turkey in that case, cheaper and way safer

I will choose Crimea - my friends live there. As will a shit-ton of other Russians.

I would not ridicule the Soviets if I were you - your mightily democratic government has so far failed to produce a single naval base of that caliber, and continues to share this one with our fleet.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Or is it about the Tatars? They have no reason to love the Ukrainian government either. Besides, they are an actual minority compared to the Russian-speaking segment of the population.

The only reason Russian is the majority is because of resettlement and murder of those who refused to accept Russian as the new language and be happily under the Soviet Union. I find this all very amusing, how about you give up Karelia to Finland if you think people should have their rightful lands? Or is Russia the only one allowed such rights?

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Also, I don't think anyone here (except UR maybe) is against the Crimean getting a referendum for independence.

You know what I would prefer right now in my current pre-war mood?

Packing most of Russians in Crimea, deporting them to Russia (Russia is big enough to host them), give their homes back to Tatars then aid willing Crimean Tartars to return from Turkey\Central Asia to move in Crimea and grant independence(or very wide autonomy as the first step)  to mixed Ukrainian\Tatar\other minorities Crimea getting friendly nation and understanding that Ukrainians living here will slowly assimilate into that Crimean nation

If Russians of Crimea want to act as Germans of Sudetenland. They deserve the same fate.

[Knit tie]

Right gentlemen, what's going on? Anything new from Crimea?

[Ukrainian Ranger]

And it was resettlement, not murder. Do soften your damn terminology.

Crimean Tatars where  genocided more than once. Resettlement is was the last one.  I fully expect new one soon.

"Resettlement" included transportation in cattle wagons and unloading in civilization-less steppes. Many died because of that, you know?

[Owlbread]

It's interesting that certain Crimeans would talk of their fear of the nationalists in West Ukraine when the entire Crimean situation bubbles down to very, very powerful feelings of Russian nationalism.

But yeah, Avis, you obviously don't know just how many people died as a result of the deportations. It was murder. The deportations as a whole, including that which befell all the other ethnic groups (e.g. Volga Germans, all the countless Caucasian peoples etc), could actually be considered genocide. I certainly consider it to be an act of genocide.

[Sergarr]

It's interesting that Avis would talk of his fear of the nationalists in West Ukraine when the entire Crimean situation bubbles down to very, very powerful feelings of Russian nationalism.

But yeah, Avis, you obviously don't know just how many people died as a result of the deportations. It was murder.

[citation needed]

[GreatJustice]

Or is it about the Tatars? They have no reason to love the Ukrainian government either. Besides, they are an actual minority compared to the Russian-speaking segment of the population.

The only reason Russian is the majority is because of resettlement and murder of those who refused to accept Russian as the new language and be happily under the Soviet Union. I find this all very amusing, how about you give up Karelia to Finland if you think people should have their rightful lands? Or is Russia the only one allowed such rights?

Well it certainly isn't Ukrainian, seeing as how Crimea's only connection to Ukraine, again, is a largely ceremonial transfer by Khrushchev from the RSFSR to the USSR in the 50s. Maybe it's Tartar, but I don't see you clamoring for a return of Georgia to the Cherokee, Australia to the Aborigines or even Lviv to the Polish (or Austrians).