Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 77 78 [79] 80 81 ... 286

Author Topic: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread  (Read 309677 times)

nenjin

  • Bay Watcher
  • Inscrubtable Exhortations of the Soul
    • View Profile
Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1170 on: March 01, 2014, 03:19:11 pm »

Sure, I understand that.

But with Russian forces pulling up to the Eastern border, from the outside looking in, it would certainly seem like a desire to repatriate Eastern Ukraine to Russia.

I guess I ask, what about their sense of being Ukrainian? Does some part of them not shudder at the thought of another country crossing their borders in force?

Again, as an American, this isn't something we worry about. The idea of Canadian or Mexican military forces crossing our borders is unthinkable. It's why we always joked about Russian invading Alaska when Sarah Palin was governor, because that absurdity seemed more likely than any other alternatives.

I'm just trying to understand the mind of the Crimeans, because it's easy to paint them in ways that don't respect their honest feelings and motivations in this matter. On the other hand, it feels like they're inviting serious conflict by Pro-Russian support to the point they may officially become Russian. When the matter was a head of state rejecting a deal with the EU in favor of one with Russia, it was a little easier to understand. But now that there are tanks and artillery on the borders......the problem is both less abstract but also less rational to me.
Logged
Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

burningpet

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1171 on: March 01, 2014, 03:23:21 pm »

Nenjin, i think it all comes down to whether you choose to believe Svoboda are still a neo-nazi party, or whether their rebranding was a genuine change of spirit. if it's the former, the alignment of native russians toward Russia is more than understandable.

Again, before anyone start jumping around, that DOESN'T mean i am pro-russian or think forcefully annexing a piece of another country land is a justified action.

btw, any economist here can shed light on actually which deal was better for the ukranian people? aside from the west versus russia issues, strictly financially, which one was more benefiting?
Logged

Mictlantecuhtli

  • Bay Watcher
  • Grinning God of Death
    • View Profile
Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1172 on: March 01, 2014, 03:23:55 pm »

Best try to understand the mind of Crimeans while they're still around; once Russia murders the rest of the locals there's not going to be much of Tatar/Non-Russian culture left to examine.
Logged
I am surrounded by flesh and bone, I am a temple of living. Maybe I'll maybe my life away.

Santorum leaves a bad taste in my mouth,
Card-carrying Liberaltarian

Sheb

  • Bay Watcher
  • You Are An Avatar
    • View Profile
Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1173 on: March 01, 2014, 03:24:54 pm »

There is a petition on WhiteHouse.gov for Obama to offer peackeepers to Ukraine. I guessed you signed it MSH?

Burningpet: Russian deal on the short term, European integration on the long term. Russia offers cash, Europe offer coaching to become a better country.
Logged

Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

Avis-Mergulus

  • Bay Watcher
  • This adorable animal can't work.
    • View Profile
Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1174 on: March 01, 2014, 03:30:12 pm »

You know, I usually avoid political matters altogether, but this one is a bit close to the skin. You see, my grandfather is a resident of Crimea, as well as my father until he got married. I spent a great portion of my conscious life there, so I take all this personally.

First of all, I find recent history slightly more relevant than ancient history - that is, the fact that Crimea was part of the RSFSR just half a century ago is more relevant that it was ruled by a Tatar khanate four hundred years ago, or that it was Greek in the times of antiquity. But stuff that, what is definitely relevant is that the majority of the population speaks Russian. A government that deprives the Crimeans of their language cannot be fit to govern them. The nationalist (and it has always been nationalist; if you think Yanukovich was in any way pro-Russian...well, hah. When he was elected, everybody expected him to solve the whole status of the Russian language question: he did not solve jack, and kept most of Poxface's ultra-right policies) government of Ukraine has always tried to "ukrainize" Crimea by blatant smear tactics against Russia and forced introduction of the Ukrainian goddamn mova into every aspect of life ; seriously, some of the shit that blared from my TV in the later years has to be heard to be believed. Well, by now everybody has had enough of this. Surprise.

You may ask why I say with such confidence that Russian is the language of Crimea. That's simple - I lived there, and plan to live there again. Find me a person in Sudak or Yalta or Simferopol or wherever who has Ukrainian as a first language and is not a tourist from the Ivano-Frankovschina or Lvov or the hamlet of Petlurovka on the border of Poland, and you can have a cookie.

And that brings me to the next part of my rant. The average reader of these words can find neither Lvov nor Sudak on a map, because he is Canadian, or American, or British, or Cuban for all I care. And yet he comes to this thread to express his indignation about events he learned about from some news feed, and so sincere he is in his fury that I find myself outmatched by his righteousness. Maybe if our affairs concern the western parts of the world so much, we Slavs should start a reality show? Earn a quick buck to support our failing, import-dependent economies.

"Why, Avis", say you, "you talk so much about how Crimeans speak Russian and how the Ukrainian government is a bunch of Nazis, but does that excuse the grubbing motions of evil imperialist Russia and its Czar Pootang?"
"Sure as hell it does", answer I. I would prefer it if my friends and relatives did not have to suffer a government that tells them I am their enemy, and that they must speak a language that they don't give a crap about, or be second-class citizens. I would prefer to live in the same state as them, and they would prefer to live in the same state as me. It is not a question of land or ancient history. It is a question of people being forcibly separated by a foreign and hostile entity - real, living, currently-existing people. That might be slightly hard to understand if your country did not fall to bits a couple decades ago, I know. I personally can't wait for the moment I and my granddad can visit each other without crossing a border, and so do millions of Russians.

Of course, I would welcome an independent Crimea or an independent East Ukraine - I might even get a dual citizenship. The thing that I find the most revolting is the propaganda war that the Ukrainian government (utterly incompetent - the Soviet Union's finest agricultural region, importing grain. At least we kept the competent thieves after the nineties) is or was leading against Russia and its own Russian-speaking population. The game of nezalezhnost' is a game any number of parties can play.

This is my entirely selfish point of view. Forgive me if I seem rude - I have the horriblest headache right now.

*  The imperialist Russian goblin has let loose a vile croak!



Logged
“See this Payam!” cried the gods, “He deceives us! He cruelly abuses our lustful hearts!”

burningpet

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1175 on: March 01, 2014, 03:32:13 pm »

There is a petition on WhiteHouse.gov for Obama to offer peackeepers to Ukraine. I guessed you signed it MSH?

Burningpet: Russian deal on the short term, European integration on the long term. Russia offers cash, Europe offer coaching to become a better country.

Do you have specifics? the financial state of europe is hardly an assurance for a long term success, nor the "success" of some of its coached countries is reassuring.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 03:40:52 pm by burningpet »
Logged

Mictlantecuhtli

  • Bay Watcher
  • Grinning God of Death
    • View Profile
Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1176 on: March 01, 2014, 03:34:44 pm »

First of all, I find recent history slightly more relevant than ancient history - that is, the fact that Crimea was part of the RSFSR just half a century ago is more relevant that it was ruled by a Tatar khanate four hundred years ago

This would be fair logic if you applied it to the government currently holding the land. But naw, skip right to the soviet union's ownership because they're the best ones.
Logged
I am surrounded by flesh and bone, I am a temple of living. Maybe I'll maybe my life away.

Santorum leaves a bad taste in my mouth,
Card-carrying Liberaltarian

Avis-Mergulus

  • Bay Watcher
  • This adorable animal can't work.
    • View Profile
Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1177 on: March 01, 2014, 03:35:36 pm »

First of all, I find recent history slightly more relevant than ancient history - that is, the fact that Crimea was part of the RSFSR just half a century ago is more relevant that it was ruled by a Tatar khanate four hundred years ago

This would be fair logic if you applied it to the people currently holding the land.
I do.
Logged
“See this Payam!” cried the gods, “He deceives us! He cruelly abuses our lustful hearts!”

Ukrainian Ranger

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1178 on: March 01, 2014, 03:37:20 pm »

nenjin
As any external threat the current situation is doing wonders for uniting the nation. Yep, we have numerous fifth column who will welcome and aid the invasion but should we prevail we will be more united than ever. All internal conflicts look so minor when you have a war near your doorstep

As for Crimeans... While many Russians here do want back to Russia.  The ones I know are in very fell mood know. Why? Because they understand that whatever the end result will be, the next tourism season is doomed to fail. And that is the main source of profit for the majority of population.  Not mentioning that Crimea gets majority of it's water and electricity from Ukraine and if they to become independent\Russian and hostile to Ukraine.... The prices for those may go up

That is one of reasons I think that Russia is not interested in Crimea alone: It is too dependable on "mainland" Ukraine. Building a bridge and bringing water\electricity from Russia is billions worth projects that need time to complete. No, they need a land route from Russia to Crimea
Logged
War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Mictlantecuhtli

  • Bay Watcher
  • Grinning God of Death
    • View Profile
Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1179 on: March 01, 2014, 03:37:39 pm »

I do.



First of all, I find recent history slightly more relevant than ancient history - that is, the fact that Crimea was part of the Ukraine just half a week ago is more relevant that it was ruled by the Soviet Union half a century ago.
Logged
I am surrounded by flesh and bone, I am a temple of living. Maybe I'll maybe my life away.

Santorum leaves a bad taste in my mouth,
Card-carrying Liberaltarian

Dutchling

  • Bay Watcher
  • Ridin' with Biden
    • View Profile
Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1180 on: March 01, 2014, 03:40:44 pm »

Wait.

That map.

Why the fuck does Russia have a naval base in the Ukraine?
Logged

Comrade P.

  • Bay Watcher
  • For space is wide and good friends are too few
    • View Profile
Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1181 on: March 01, 2014, 03:42:36 pm »

Crimea was part of the Ukraine
OR DID THEY?!?

Avis, you know better I suppose, but I presume that Crimeans haven't felt themselves realy Ukrainian. Bt this is up to Crimeans, in fact.
Logged
Sigs

Nobody exists on purpose. Nobody belongs anywhere. Everybody’s gonna die. Come watch TV?

Avis-Mergulus

  • Bay Watcher
  • This adorable animal can't work.
    • View Profile
Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1182 on: March 01, 2014, 03:44:18 pm »

I do.



First of all, I find recent history slightly more relevant than ancient history - that is, the fact that Crimea was part of the Ukraine just half a week ago is more relevant that it was ruled by the Soviet Union half a century ago.
The rest of my post was intended to be read, too, you know. The point was that the government of Ukraine is illegitimate because of its actions, not because of the historical basis behind it - also negligible.

As for the next tourism season, if Crimea becomes part of Russia, it will be the touristiest tourism season ever - all the people,e who have a phobia of your border control guys will show up. Do you feed them on gravel or something? They're the crankiest.

Crimea was part of the Ukraine
OR DID THEY?!?

Avis, you know better I suppose, but I presume that Crimeans haven't felt themselves realy Ukrainian. Bt this is up to Crimeans, in fact.
When did I say something like that..? Your talent for misinterpreting me astounds me. Just PM me in Russian if I say aught odd, and I'll explain myself.
Logged
“See this Payam!” cried the gods, “He deceives us! He cruelly abuses our lustful hearts!”

burningpet

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1183 on: March 01, 2014, 03:46:33 pm »

First of all, I find recent history slightly more relevant than ancient history - that is, the fact that Crimea was part of the Ukraine just half a week ago is more relevant that it was ruled by the Soviet Union half a century ago.

And today they chose to join forces with russia. cant get any recent.

If a segment in Ukraine can just set its own president disregarding the majority, why shouldn't any other minority do so?
Logged

Comrade P.

  • Bay Watcher
  • For space is wide and good friends are too few
    • View Profile
Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #1184 on: March 01, 2014, 03:47:17 pm »

Crimea was part of the Ukraine
OR DID THEY?!?

Avis, you know better I suppose, but I presume that Crimeans haven't felt themselves realy Ukrainian. Bt this is up to Crimeans, in fact.
When did I say something like that..? Your talent for misinterpreting me astounds me. Just PM me in Russian if I say aught odd, and I'll explain myself.

Nevermind. Truly my misinterpreting talents have no borders in their constant expand.
Logged
Sigs

Nobody exists on purpose. Nobody belongs anywhere. Everybody’s gonna die. Come watch TV?
Pages: 1 ... 77 78 [79] 80 81 ... 286