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[gnome42]

I wanted to make some cutting and vivid remark about perceptions of being a Mexican immediately south of the border among Americans, but it'll just give this all a nasty tone, so I won't. Suffice to say, yeah, it's a bit of backhanded racism. (Full disclosure, I'm 50% Mexican.)

Hmm.   I don't know that you can get more white-bread than me and I read that as a compliment to Mexico.
I've been to Texas multiple times.

Rampant Drug Fueled Gangs are possibly an improvement over most of TX.
When you throw in the 99% of the population that is just trying to get by in Northern Mexico?

We'll take it as part of the US.  The entire country of Mexico if you want. 
It can only improve things.

Are many folks in TX the same way?  Yep.

Is there a vocal minority in TX that are a bunch of self centered pricks that think that they are better than anyone else? Yep.

Let's water them down with even more people that just want to go to their jobs, feed their kids, and not die in a gutter.

[nenjin]

I work with a whole crew from Texas, so I kinda know what you mean. Although they tend to have less to say about Mexicans than they do Blacks.

[Knit tie]

You know, loathe as I do to wish divisions between people, I would much prefer Russia quietly annexing Crimea and the west spending the next year making lame excuses about why they didn't do anything to an open confrontation. There are many negative consequences in allowing Putin to do as he pleases, but there are even more negative consequences in the western powers deploying their troops in or around the crimean territory of openly threatening Russia. A war is truly the last thing Ukraine needs in these times of tumult. Of course, the best possible situation would be Putin withdrawing his troops due to political pressure and the pro-russian ukrainians sorting thing out with their new government, but, alas, it's extremely unlikely to happen. And let's be realistic here: having one tinpot dictator ruling over Crimea instead of another would not change the lives of people much.

It's such a shame that the worst conflicts are often born of the best intentions - all the ukrainians wanted when they were protesting was a better government.

EDIT: Mexico's awesome guys, so is Texas. They are both markedly better than Ukraine and Syria, at least, and you should be thankful for that. Besides, bashing countries is just wrong. Just because the guy in charge is an asshole doesn't mean that there aren't good people in there.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

No, a war is exactly what is needed if Russia doesn't back down. You can't just ignore this kind of thing.

[XXSockXX]

Oh shit, that's the Georgia /Abchasia scenario. I didn't think they would really try that openly.

My best guess right now, if cool heads prevail, Crimea goes to Russia. Forget Obama / NATO / UN, they can't really do anything anyway.

-snip-

While I do not agree with you, I wouldn't dismiss your concerns as pointless. I'll write something more later, when it's more clear what's going on right now.

[Knit tie]

No, a war is exactly what is needed if Russia doesn't back down. You can't just ignore this kind of thing.

Unfortunately, wars, in general, never punish the guilty, instead just slaughtering the innocent. Putin won't care if a shitload of civillians in Crimea die from bombings, malnutrition and disease and a shitload more soldiers (who were either drafted, as in the case of Russia, or just doing their jobs, as in the case of the US) are gutted by shrapnel and left to die on the battlefields. And think about the long term costs - the division it will cause between pro- and anti-Russian Ukrainians, the destruction it will spread around the region, the poverty in which the survivors will be living for years afterwards. War may seem to be the right thing to do, but it won't do anything other than kill several millions of completely innocent people.

[Owlbread]

If Crimea does actually join Russia that's another group added onto my list of peoples whose independence I must fight for/bring up in unrelated conversations etc. The Tatars, I mean. I already support Tatar independence, that's why I've been so uneasy over the last few days, it's just I know that the most sensible and likely way for that to happen is for Crimea to stay Ukrainian while all the Crimean Tatar diaspora is encouraged to move back home from Turkey and Uzbekistan etc.

If Crimea joins Russia the Tatars might as well just head back into the steppe, there'd be no place for them there. They already stay in ghettos because Russians are occupying their houses. Old people actually tried to come back with their families in the '90s (that's why there's still Tatars in Crimea) but Russians were actually living in the houses that hadn't been demolished and told them "No, you don't live here anymore. We've changed the name of the village too. Sort yourselves out."

[misko27]

Spoiler: This certainly isn't Ukraine related, so it gets spoilered (click to show/hide)

Here's an example of the delightful comments on that Russian invasion video:

SERBIA SUPPORT !!! FUCK SASA WHITE AND OTHER UKRAINIAN PROISLAMIC CHECHEN BITCHES !!!

I'm pretty sure that video is making the rounds on 4chan and that is what bought on the obscene amount of... well obscenity. Don't worry, those comments are not an accurate reflection of any facet of humanity, just grumpy trolls. The helicopters, on the other hand, are somewhat worrisome.

*cough*Chetniks*cough*

Both of you are wrong. Unfortunately for both your arguments, the north section of Mexico is bad only because it is in the state of Mexico and is a prime spot for smuggling into the US, not because it's geographically inherently bad. If the US had taken it over, it would likely be nicer (in the way that Texas is nicer then Mexico), and the smaller Mexico would be bad in what would then be it's north, for the exact same reasons as before, namely drugs and being a poor Latin American country. If Texas was Mexico, Texas would be controlled by cartels in the same way.

<=== *Removed because I can't spoiler spoilers in this browser* ===>

But yeah isn't what Russia is doing in Ukraine right now exactly what the USA did in Hawaii and Texas?

Yes and no. There are a number of similarties to Texas, and a lot of differences. I wouldn't call the situations incomparable, but they clearly have different ends.

Hawaii was mostly imperialism though. It's all white/Asian now, the natives are as rare as in the rest of the US. In Russia ethnicities are replaced, in America they are assimilated. "We are America. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your cultural  distinctiveness to our own.  Resistance is futile."

I wanted to make some cutting and vivid remark about perceptions of being a Mexican immediately south of the border among Americans, but it'll just give this all a nasty tone, so I won't. Suffice to say, yeah, it's a bit of backhanded racism. (Full disclosure, I'm 50% Mexican.)

Hmm.   I don't know that you can get more white-bread than me and I read that as a compliment to Mexico.
I've been to Texas multiple times.

Rampant Drug Fueled Gangs are possibly an improvement over most of TX.
When you throw in the 99% of the population that is just trying to get by in Northern Mexico?

We'll take it as part of the US.  The entire country of Mexico if you want. 
It can only improve things.

Are many folks in TX the same way?  Yep.

Is there a vocal minority in TX that are a bunch of self centered pricks that think that they are better than anyone else? Yep.

Let's water them down with even more people that just want to go to their jobs, feed their kids, and not die in a gutter.

I legitimately am having trouble following the train of thought here. What are you saying?

So where is the news? Last I heard Russia is getting more aggressive, Ukraine is calling aggression, armed pro-Russian militia are roaming the streets, and Obama was warning Russia against intervention. And then? I can't get any news less then two hours old.

Yeah, sorry to say but Obama would have to risk a lot to move on Ukraine now. The only people I could imagine legitimately responding if Russia acts is the EU (unless Ukraine directly asks Nato "Hey guys can I get a friendly intervention here"), and they are more likely to invade Switzerland then intervene in the Ukraine. And at the same time, he knows he has to project force to dissuade Russia.

[nenjin]

If Crimea does actually join Russia that's another group added onto my list of peoples whose independence I must fight for/bring up in unrelated conversations etc. The Tatars, I mean. I already support Tatar independence, that's why I've been so uneasy over the last few days, it's just I know that the most sensible way for that to happen is for Crimea to stay Ukrainian while all the Crimean Tatar diaspora is encouraged to move back home from Turkey and Uzbekistan etc.

If Crimea joins Russia the Tatars might as well just head back into the steppe, there'd be no place for them there. They already stay in ghettos because Russians are occupying their houses. Old people actually tried to come back with their families in the '90s (that's why there's still Tatars in Crimea) but Russians were actually living in the houses that hadn't been demolished and told them "No, you don't live here anymore. We've changed the name of the village too. Sort yourselves out."

Yeah, just to add another cultural group who complicates the question of whether it's fair or right to let Crimea secede. Maybe it's all the sectarian violence in Middle Eastern countries that has me thinking this way, but the mix of completing identities and ethnic backgrounds basically means no one is satisfied with any arrangement, so the largest group wins.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

No, a war is exactly what is needed if Russia doesn't back down. You can't just ignore this kind of thing.

Unfortunately, wars, in general, never punish the guilty, instead just slaughtering the innocent. Putin won't care if a shitload of civillians in Crimea die from bombings, malnutrition and disease and a shitload more soldiers (who were either drafted, as in the case of Russia, or just doing their jobs, as in the case of the US) are gutted by shrapnel and left to die on the battlefields. And think about the long term costs - the division it will cause between pro- and anti-Russian Ukrainians, the destruction it will spread around the region, the poverty in which the survivors will be living for years afterwards. War may seem to be the right thing to do, but it won't do anything other than kill several millions of completely innocent people.

And how many innocent people do you think will ultimately die if Putin is just allowed to do whatever he wants? The Ukrainians have been fighting for freedom, and they deserve it, as do all people. They most definitely do not deserve to be under the thumb of a thug like Putin, no matter which language they speak.

[misko27]

And think about the long term costs - the division it will cause between pro- and anti-Russian Ukrainians, the destruction it will spread around the region, the poverty in which the survivors will be living for years afterwards.

Putin: "That is precisely the idea General, that is precisely the idea."

*cookies for reference catchers*

So, Ukraine, news, please, someone. My Google-fu has failed me. Or has nothing happened? It seems to be happening so fast too.

[Owlbread]

I don't know if anyone thinks this, but maybe they do; you may be wondering why uniquely I am so uneasy about an independence movement. Is it Russophobia? No, if Crimea wanted independence and only independence for its people regardless of their ethnicity I'd be right behind it. The problem is that this is not an issue of separatism or independence. The movement in Crimea right now is irredentist. I just feel that I should make that as clear as possible.

[Knit tie]

No, a war is exactly what is needed if Russia doesn't back down. You can't just ignore this kind of thing.

Unfortunately, wars, in general, never punish the guilty, instead just slaughtering the innocent. Putin won't care if a shitload of civillians in Crimea die from bombings, malnutrition and disease and a shitload more soldiers (who were either drafted, as in the case of Russia, or just doing their jobs, as in the case of the US) are gutted by shrapnel and left to die on the battlefields. And think about the long term costs - the division it will cause between pro- and anti-Russian Ukrainians, the destruction it will spread around the region, the poverty in which the survivors will be living for years afterwards. War may seem to be the right thing to do, but it won't do anything other than kill several millions of completely innocent people.

And how many innocent people do you think will ultimately die if Putin is just allowed to do whatever he wants? The Ukrainians have been fighting for freedom, and they deserve it, as do all people. They most definitely do not deserve to be under the thumb of a thug like Putin, no matter which language they speak.

Nobody deserves Putin, that's for certain. I just believe that, since he hasn't been very genocidal throughout his career, his rule will kill several magnitudes less people that a war between Russia and the west. As I said, I sincerely hope that he decides to withdraw from Crimea under political pressure and the ukrainians get to keep their freedom.

And think about the long term costs - the division it will cause between pro- and anti-Russian Ukrainians, the destruction it will spread around the region, the poverty in which the survivors will be living for years afterwards.

Putin: "That is precisely the idea General, that is precisely the idea."

Just to make it clear, I do not support Dobbyface here. It's just that he has been shown to kill significantly less people than war, so if we have to choose between two evils, he is the leser one.

I don't know if anyone thinks this, but maybe they do; you may be wondering why uniquely I am so uneasy about an independence movement. Is it Russophobia? No, if Crimea wanted independence and only independence for its people regardless of their ethnicity I'd be right behind it. The problem is that this is not an issue of separatism or independence. The movement in Crimea right now is irredentist. I just feel that I should make that as clear as possible.

I don't recall anyone saying that what Russia or the pro-russian movement in Ukraine does is justified. It certainly is not.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Oh, good god. "Pretty please don't oppress us?" Freedom is a struggle, dude. If you and yours aren't willing to take it you will never have it.

[XXSockXX]

Yeah, sorry to say but Obama would have to risk a lot to move on Ukraine now. The only people I could imagine legitimately responding if Russia acts is the EU (unless Ukraine directly asks Nato "Hey guys can I get a friendly intervention here"), and they are more likely to invade Switzerland then intervene in the Ukraine. And at the same time, he knows he has to project force to dissuade Russia.

Assuming that we both live on the same planet, what would you expect the EU to do here? I think, if Russia goes full confrontation here the most anybody can really do is diplomatic isolation and some minor_at_best economic sanctions. I wouldn't hold that against NATO or the EU or US, because nobody wants WW3.

And how many innocent people do you think will ultimately die if Putin is just allowed to do whatever he wants? The Ukrainians have been fighting for freedom, and they deserve it, as do all people. They most definitely do not deserve to be under the thumb of a thug like Putin, no matter which language they speak.

If you have been following the events, it's not as simple as that. There is likely a majority in Crimea who wants to be part of Russia. This will screw the minorities there probably and the way this is going it also does not respect Ukraine's or Crimea's sovereignty at all. But still, it's not that simple.