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Author Topic: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread  (Read 309365 times)

Morrigi

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #990 on: February 28, 2014, 04:12:08 pm »

Mysteriously, evening news bulletins on Russian television didn't even mention Ukrainian government's claims of armed invasion by the "Russian army". The takeover of Simferopol's airport was mentioned rather shortly, it was attributed to ethnic Russian self-defence forces.
Link? Also interested.

Websites of major Russian television channels such as Channel One Russia, Rossiya 1 and NTV have videos of aired news segments - none of them mentions Turchinov's accusations of armed invasion.
Found this on liveleak. About a dozen attack and transport helicopters flying in Crimea. The video was posted today.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #991 on: February 28, 2014, 04:20:43 pm »

Speaking about neo-nazi:
https://twitter.com/BalmforthTom/status/439446655612768256

I think some Svoboda supporters are there... Or that is done by local Russians. It is up to you to decide what is more probable. I can only say that you can't find something like that in Lviv or Kiyv
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #992 on: February 28, 2014, 04:24:54 pm »

Diving further into it this looks, smells, and sounds like an invasion:
Quote
On Friday, Vladimir Zhirinovsky, one of Russia's most outspoken ultranationalist politicians, paid a surprise visit to the city and gave a speech in front of the city's administration building.

"All the roads, all the ports, all the communications are under the control of the provincial Crimean government," he declared to thunderous applause of hundreds of people. "I don't want you to worry whether anything bad will happen tomorrow -- let's welcome the Russian flag that is flying over government buildings."

He said the people in Sevastopol could count on Russia's support and said that the land had long been part of Russia – a reference to the fact that Crimea was ceded to Ukraine's Soviet republic in 1954.

"I promise that Russia will render you all kinds of assistance – moral, economic and political," he said.

He then took an opportunity to take a swipe at Ukrainian nationalists who had introduced a bill to downgrade the official status of the Russian language.

"If they want somewhere only to speak Ukrainian then here we will speak only Russian," he said.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/28/ukraine-accuses-russia-of-taking-over-airports-live-updates

Anyone want to deny that Russia is actively supporting this operation? And likely set it up in the first place? Because it sure looks like it. And no, I'm tired of "It's Russian" it's not. The same way west Germany isn't the US's territory. It's Crimean. Murdering the locals to make it Russified when you did occupy the place does not allow you any 'claim'.

Speaking about neo-nazi:
https://twitter.com/BalmforthTom/status/439446655612768256

I think some Svoboda supporters are there... Or that is done by local Russians. It is up to you to decide what is more probable. I can only say that you can't find something like that in Lviv or Kiyv


Very odd that this appears in a place under Russian KGB supervision, all of a sudden. Not really, it's pretty apparent the game being played here. Play to people's fear, and let glorious Russia take Nazi Ukraine down.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 04:26:57 pm by Mictlantecuhtli »
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Sheb

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #993 on: February 28, 2014, 04:31:55 pm »

If only the Maidan protesters had been as well organized as those "Self-defence units". Euromaidan on attack choppers, it would be so glorious. 
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burningpet

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #994 on: February 28, 2014, 04:35:15 pm »


You're making the claim, it should be easy to find links to support what you say. Get to it.

I find this very amusing since there's been plenty of Jewish support for the revolution and Jews on the streets with these 'nazis' and yet there's been 0, yes, count them 0 violent deaths of Jews in these instances. You and I both know random line-toting nazis don't play that. Don't act like you truly believe this is the case, as you should be well aware that people with ideologies like that will make B-lines for synagogues, like in Egypt. This hasn't happened in Ukraine.

But wait, you can come back and say 'but that's just propaganda!' Which is likely the next step here.

Which claim? that the Svoboda has neo-nazi roots?
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #995 on: February 28, 2014, 04:36:26 pm »

Svoboda IS a neo-nazis party and have had major influence both in power and in numbers with the protesters.

So in a nutshell, neo-nazis have been a key factor in overthrowing an elected government and the west is cheering, blinded by hate toward commis and by its leaders greed and imperial aspirations.
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Sheb

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #996 on: February 28, 2014, 04:40:07 pm »

It's really scary how Russian troops can just walk in without any resistance. And of course, if you do anything, they'll claim you attacked first, like in Georgia in 2008. Makes you understand why every European country that border them is so keen on NATO.

I think we should offer help to the Ukrainian. Maybe not army, but riot police and beat those soldiers back. They won't dare to shoot at Westerners.
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #997 on: February 28, 2014, 04:42:20 pm »

I'm just ignoring the next bit of posts regarding the N-word. I'm tired of it and it serves zero purpose. Onto the real issues:

It's really scary how Russian troops can just walk in without any resistance. And of course, if you do anything, they'll claim you attacked first, like in Georgia in 2008. Makes you understand why every European country that border them is so keen on NATO.

I think we should offer help to the Ukrainian. Maybe not army, but riot police and beat those soldiers back. They won't dare to shoot at Westerners.

https://twitter.com/Lucian_Kim/status/439479544807165952


Russian APCs rolling in.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #998 on: February 28, 2014, 04:48:24 pm »

Quote
Crimean Tatars' leader Mustafa Cemilev is holding a meeting with Turkey's FM Davutoğlu in Kiev right now.
Turkey is one of countries I hope we can get help from.... They have their own interests in Black Sea and may dislike Russian Crimea a lot.

I'd wish to hope on Ukrainian army but the fact is that Ukrainian army is ruined by years of corruption, underfunding and destructive Russian influence. So it has no resources to do anything that can stop Russians
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Sheb

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #999 on: February 28, 2014, 04:50:41 pm »

Well, let's at least look at the bright side of things. Ukraine is lost for Russia. We'll see what happen with Crimea.

The sad thing is that no-one but NATO can stop the Russians. And the tough of a NATO-Russian war makes me shudder.

Hilariously, I've still got FB posts from leftist friends blaming the US from intervening in Ukraine.
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Knit tie

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #1000 on: February 28, 2014, 04:52:10 pm »

Russian here, I have to say that I don't have any idea what's going on as all the news sources I currently have access to inside the country are heavily biased and extremely unreliable. Would you gentlemen mind bringing me in?

EDIT: It's good that Ukraine is lost to us. I don't really care about politics, but if that's what people want, then it's the better option.

As for the invasion, it's probably just Putin powertripping and trying to pull off the same shit he did in Georgia.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 04:55:33 pm by Knit tie »
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Sheb

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #1001 on: February 28, 2014, 04:55:46 pm »

Yeah, technically we call it an invasion.

Basically, Yanukovitch refused to sign a deal with the EU under Russian pressure, that made a lot of people angry, they became angrier when Yanukovitch resorted to violence, then there was riots, awesome catapults, then a deal, then Yanukovitch ran away for no real reasons. Then Crimea started to protest and ask for annexation by Russia, and Russia moved a lots of troops in just after declaring a totally unrelated snap exercise.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #1002 on: February 28, 2014, 04:58:00 pm »

then there was riots, awesome catapults,
And a wizard. You forgot to mention the wizard.
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burningpet

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #1003 on: February 28, 2014, 04:59:02 pm »

Svoboda has its roots in neo-nazism, those roots still exist, while not in open rhetoric, in the people still leading it.

"History

Social-National Party of Ukraine

The Wolfsangel, Svoboda's first party logo (1991–2003)
The Social-National Party of Ukraine (SNPU) was registered as a party on October 16, 1995;[1][23] although the original movement was founded on October 13, 1991, in Lviv. The name of the party was an intentional reference to the Nazi Party in Germany.[24][25] Membership was restricted to ethnic Ukrainians, and for a period the party did not accept atheists or former members of the Communist Party. The party also recruited skinheads and football hooligans.[26]
The SNPU's official program defined itself as an "irreconcilable enemy of Communist ideology" and all other parties to be either collaborators and enemies of the Ukrainian revolution, or romanticists. According to Svoboda's website, during the 1994 Ukrainian parliamentary elections the party presented its platform as distinct from those of the communists and social democrats.[27]
In the 1998 parliamentary elections the party joined a bloc of parties (together with the All-Ukrainian Political Movement "State Independence of Ukraine")[28] called "Less Words" (Ukrainian: Менше слів), which collected 0.16% of the national vote.[23][29][30] Party member Oleh Tyahnybok[31] was voted into the Ukrainian Parliament in this election.[31] He became a member of the People's Movement of Ukraine faction.[31]
The party established the paramilitary organization Patriots of Ukraine in 1999 as an "Association of Support" for the Military of Ukraine. The paramilitary organization, which continues to use the Wolfsangel symbol, was disbanded in 2004 during the SNPU's reformation and reformed in 2005.[2] Svoboda officially ended association with the group in 2007,[32] but they remain informally linked,[33][34][35] with representatives of Svoboda attending social campaigns such as protests against price increases and leafleting against drugs and alcohol.[36] In 2014, Svoboda was noted for clashing with the far-right group Right Sector, a coalition which includes Patriot of Ukraine.[37]
In 2001, the party joined some actions of the "Ukraine without Kuchma" protest campaign and was active in forming the association of Ukraine's rightist parties and in supporting Viktor Yushchenko's candidacy for prime minister, although it did not participate in the 2002 parliamentary elections.[23] However, as a member of Victor Yushchenko’s Our Ukraine bloc, Tyahnybok was reelected to the Ukrainian parliament.[31] The SNPU won two seats in the Lviv oblast council of deputies and representation in the city and district councils in the Lviv and Volyn oblasts.[27][third-party source needed]
In 2004 the party had less than 1,000 members.[14]
All-Ukrainian Union "Svoboda"
The Social-National Party of Ukraine changed its name to the All-Ukrainian Union "Svoboda" in February 2004 with the arrival of Oleh Tyahnybok as party leader.[2] Tyahnybok made significant efforts to moderate the party's extremist image by replacing the "I + N" ("Idea Natsii" ukr. "idea of a nation") Wolfsangel logo (a symbol also popular among neo-Nazi groups)[2][26] with a three-fingered hand reminiscent of the 'Tryzub' pro-independence gesture of the late 1980s,[26] and by pushing neo-Nazi and other radical groups out the party.[38]
In 2004, Tyahnybok was expelled from the Our Ukraine parliamentary faction for a speech calling for Ukrainians to fight against a "Muscovite-Jewish mafia,"[39] and celebrated the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists for having fought "Moscovites, Germans, Jews and other scum who wanted to take away our Ukrainian state."[26] The speech was delivered at the grave-site of a commander of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army where Tyahnybok praised its struggle against "Moskaly", a derogatory term for either Russians[40] or pan-Russian nationalists;[41][42] Germans; and "Zhydy", an archaic but controversial term for Jews in Ukraine due to it being a slur when used in the Russian language.[43][44]

Claiming that svoboda has not played a major role in the revolution is, lets say, misleading.
http://www.channel4.com/news/kiev-svoboda-far-right-protests-right-sector-riot-police
wikipedia lists Oleh tyahnybok as the 3rd leading figure in the revolution.

While you can clearly see A LOT more than 2-3 neo nazis symbols, what you CANT refute is that you can easily see a whole lot of svoboda flags being waved at the protests.

This is starting to feel exactly like the time when some of us maintained that a lot of the syrian rebels were actually off-country terrorists. even there people tried to refute it with "RUSSIAN PROPOGANDA!"
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Sinistar

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #1004 on: February 28, 2014, 05:01:03 pm »

On BBC:


Quote
21:32: Ukraine's UN Ambassador Yuriy Sergeyev tells the UN Security Council that Russian military helicopters and transport planes are "entering" his country and Russian armed forces have seized Crimea's main airport, AP reports.
Note the "his country" part. This might be taken out of context? Or is it just me I find this kind of rhetoric really bad in such times of crisis?

Also, Obama was to give speech at 4.45 pm (2145 GMT), but there is still no video. Unless the speech was incredibly short as I tuned in about 5 minutes later.
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