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[XXSockXX]

He hasn't met Putin yet, which I guess shows how important Putin considers him to be.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

He even said he was surprised by Putin's reaction. Nobody else is surprised I guess.

'Russia says the unidentified men are pro-russian self-defense militias'

Yeah. I think the only vaguely plausible argument for this is that at least some of them seem to lack magazines in their weapons, which indicates that they might just be there for show. But, yeah.

[Descan]

Is there something about Ukraine that just... makes people hurry up along?

Any other country, it takes weeks or months, sometimes years, just to oust the President. I think Tunisia was the exception.

In Ukraine, it's like "Okay, we have an agreement with the Pres- Oh welp he's gone okay, let's impeach him."

And then a week later, the Crimean crisis starts up.

Seriously, how much coffee do you guys drink? Or what the hell.

[XXSockXX]

Is there something about Ukraine that just... makes people hurry up along?

Any other country, it takes weeks or months, sometimes years, just to oust the President. I think Tunisia was the exception.

In Ukraine, it's like "Okay, we have an agreement with the Pres- Oh welp he's gone okay, let's impeach him."

And then a week later, the Crimean crisis starts up.

It took months to oust Yanukovych. I don't know what went on behind the scenes between the agreement and the impeachment / Yanukovych going into hiding, that went down fast indeed. Most likely it was because he lost all support when it became clear that he had lost control of the situation.
The Crimea thing so far was very predictable however, we even talked about that here and in the Eurothread back in autumn.

[scrdest]

Is there something about Ukraine that just... makes people hurry up along?

Any other country, it takes weeks or months, sometimes years, just to oust the President. I think Tunisia was the exception.

In Ukraine, it's like "Okay, we have an agreement with the Pres- Oh welp he's gone okay, let's impeach him."

And then a week later, the Crimean crisis starts up.

Seriously, how much coffee do you guys drink? Or what the hell.

They drink coffee and snort coke, maybe?

They snort coffee, unroasted.


They also drink coke, but that's hardly an achievement in anything but sugar consumption.

[Sheb]

Blame Yanukovitch for that. He could have divided the opposition and stayed in power for another year if he hadn't fled Kiev for some reason.

Also, since when do slef-defense militias suddenly get military trucks and tons of assault weapons? The best Maidan ever did was bulldozer and hunting rifles, at least until the very last.

So either they're Russians, or they are armed by Russia, or they are Ukrainian army defectors/got friends in the army that gave them stuff.

I think we would have heard of it if they were defectors, so it's one of the first two. Probably the second: I wouldn't be surprised if the FSB had spent the last couple months organizing those self-defense units. It may explain why Putin's so cool with it: he had it all planned, and now that Ukraine is in turmoil he can grab Crimea without doing a thing.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Short summary of Right Sector's recent announcements:

1) War is over. Time to get back into normal life. Any aggressive actions against people or governmental institutions to be stopped. Should anyone fail to understand that Right Sector will act together with police forces to stop that
2) Full support of the newly formed parliament coalition and government. We can't allow ourself bickering in times like that
3) Crimean Crisis to be solved peacefully. Right Sector never sent armed militia in Crimea and doesn't plan to do so

So either they're Russians, or they are armed by Russia, or they are Ukrainian army defectors/got friends in the army that gave them stuff.

Their helmets are definitively from Russian Army

[XXSockXX]

A US reporter claims to have identified the troops as Russians.

Meanwhile Putin has been talking with EU leaders on the phone and says he wants to avoid further escalation.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

1) War is over. Time to get back into normal life. Any aggressive actions against people or governmental institutions to be stopped. Should anyone fail to understand that Right Sector will act together with police forces to stop that

Bad.

2) Full support of the newly formed parliament coalition and government. We can't allow ourself bickering in times like that

Good.

3) Crimean Crisis to be solved peacefully. Right Sector never sent armed militia in Crimea and doesn't plan to do so

Good.

Right Sector needs to learn that they can't be vigilantes, but people like them tend to love that sort of thing.

[burningpet]

Svoboda aren't just nationalists, lets not whitewash this, shall we? you could claim whatever you want about the protesters/revolution as a whole, but svoboda clearly started as a neo-nazi group, still have prominent leading figures who joined the party when it was a neo-nazi party and have been repeatedly caught making extremely racist remarks and some of their official stances are not different from those adopted by EARLY german nazis, such as forcing citizen to indicate their ethnic origins (yeah, lets just put various colored tags on them instead of writing that on their passports, oh wait, sorry, my bad, although there is VERY LITTLE difference, their method is far better for fooling the fools thinking its a legitimate party stance and not a clear neo-nazi stance).

If you think a party that started as a neo nazi party, that kept its key figures, that have strong ties with fascist groups and that its stances are pretty similar to the nazis, is not a neo-nazi party, then i am afraid your mind is too easily controlled by various garbage PR actions. Svoboda IS a neo-nazis party and have had major influence both in power and in numbers with the protesters.

So in a nutshell, neo-nazis have been a key factor in overthrowing an elected government and the west is cheering, blinded by hate toward commis and by its leaders greed and imperial aspirations.

Ukrainian Ranger - the popular opinion here is very much toward favouring the revolution, probably because that's the western popular opinion and the israelis, as do i, are VERY not fond of russia/putin. but when you start reading the reports that are coming from the israeli journalists that has been there and didn't just copy pasted international media coverage, then they are clearly stating that no, there is no reason to stay calm if you are a jew living in Ukraine.
also, there are a lot of israeli-arabs that goes to Ukraine to study and they have made repeating reports of strong rise in neo-nazism and racism in Ukraine.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

All nationalists are nazis, yes.

Note pulling the "I'm jewish so I'm right about being scurred about these neonazis" doesn't pan out, I'm Jewish, I keep hearing this and then there's one picture of guys with tangentially neo-nazi imagery [remember, Hitler/Nazis are the one who stole imagery from others].

The fact that they're nationalists and there's been about two pictures of 'nazi' imagery lead me to believe there's not much power in the national socialist bits. If there were, it wouldn't have gone down as.. cleanly. You and I both know the bones these kinds of people have to pick, you really expect them to dally around and play PR games?

There's also things like this. <-- This is what nationalists do

And people who claim this was a "Jewish Coup" <-- This is what you call a neonazi

[XXSockXX]

All nationalists are nazis, yes.

Let's not go down that road again.

Far-right/Neo-Nazi-like tendencies can and should be discussed. We just have to keep it somewhat reasonable.

[Sheb]

And no one said no Svodoba members were neo-nazis. There is a broad range of opinions amongst them.

I mean, UR, what's your position on gassing Jews? On forcing people to have their ethnicity on their passports? Are you racists?

I'm pretty sure we're going to find out that at least one Svodoba member ain't a neo-nazis, and I'm sure many more share UR's views.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The problem isn't necessarily that the average person is straight-up murderous towards Jews (that wasn't true even in Nazi Germany), but that it is the common and normal opinion that Jews are both separate from the rest of society and bad people/the cause of societal problems. It's another instance of "it's the X's fault" being a kneejerk reaction towards having any kind of problem. Or US segregationists who would say things like "I like black people as long as they stay in their place". These attitudes carry the risk of rapid escalation into violence.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Long as you can show me where these groups say that 'Jews are a problem' and/or actively encourage such mindsets I'll give that line of thought some lenience, otherwise Labor/Likud are about as nazi as these people.

[burningpet]

All nationalists are nazis, yes.

Note pulling the "I'm jewish so I'm right about being scurred about these neonazis" doesn't pan out, I'm Jewish, I keep hearing this and then there's one picture of guys with tangentially neo-nazi imagery [remember, Hitler/Nazis are the one who stole imagery from others].

The fact that they're nationalists and there's been about two pictures of 'nazi' imagery lead me to believe there's not much power in the national socialist bits. If there were, it wouldn't have gone down as.. cleanly. You and I both know the bones these kinds of people have to pick, you really expect them to dally around and play PR games?

There's also things like this. <-- This is what nationalists do

And people who claim this was a "Jewish Coup" <-- This is what you call a neonazi

Are you deliberately ignoring the origins of the Svoboda party? its initial symbol? its stances? its remarks regarding other "inferior" races? yeah. this is a good way to shut people up.

btw, newsflash, there were various jewish meniphestos by leading jewish community figures that were in support of the early nazis.

Nazis/neo-nazis don't play PR games? please. nazi germans were more than excellent at it.

Sheb:
the foundation of the party is rooted in neo-nazis and its leading figures have made their fare share of racist remarks.

whether he support the stance of forcing people to have their ethnicity on their passports is irrelevant, he is supporting a party that officially support this stance.