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Author Topic: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread  (Read 309700 times)

Owlbread

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #660 on: February 21, 2014, 01:19:43 pm »

There's something about Yanukovych that reminds me of Gordon Brown.

Apparently though he is being advised by one Paul J. Manafort, former adviser to the political campaigns of George W. Bush, Reagan, Bob Dole, H. W. Bush and Gerald Ford. I wonder what he thinks of all this.
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XXSockXX

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #661 on: February 21, 2014, 01:27:18 pm »

Well, there were some justice reforms planned as part of the Association treaty. Don't believe those were executed though.
One thing is clear, Ukraine is at the verge of economic collapse and bankruptcy. EU financial help will be coupled with reform requirements, maybe that will bring the association treaty back to the table. Russian financial help was free, but it remains to be seen how relations with Russia develop, though they have welcomed the compromise.

There's something about Yanukovych that reminds me of Gordon Brown.
Trees hate Gordon Brown too?
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Owlbread

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #662 on: February 21, 2014, 01:31:25 pm »

Trees hate Gordon Brown too?

No, it's just that he was another terrible fuck up. Some called him the "clunking fist".
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aenri

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #663 on: February 21, 2014, 01:32:05 pm »

Well, there were some justice reforms planned as part of the Association treaty. Don't believe those were executed though.

I can say, that these reforms don't work at all. My country also reformed its justice system prior to EU integration. It was a disaster frankly. Our supreme court chairman (and chief justice) is the guy with friendly contacts with mafia. There is a recording of him talking amicably with head of albanian mafia. I shit you not, no one cares. The only ones that atleast try to write about it are the papers. He can shut them down magnificently, lately he got 33,000€ as court settlement for infringing his honor by mentioning that recording. He also almost won (the case is now before Supreme Court, which he presides) 150,000€ from General Prosecutor's office for publishing that recording. That was sadly not the only cases he won. When you lose your whole arm (for example in car accident) you get 15,000€ in damages (less if you lose your left arm).

He also routinely insults anyone who disagrees with him or tries to make him face that recording. Also the other judges of the Supreme Court are pretty much bullied into submission by disciplinary hearings. Atleast one judge has suicided and one died from illness and stress (because of the constant harrassment) and some have resigned from the court. He went from being Minister of Justice in 2009 to being Chief Justice.

So I have very little hope for this "deal and reforms". We are also in EU, but then Bulgaria and Romania are in too, so we are not the worst of the worst :).
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XXSockXX

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #664 on: February 21, 2014, 01:35:45 pm »

I can say, that these reforms don't work at all.
Reforms take a long long time. Think decades rather than years.

Opposition leaders talking on Maidan. Seems like it's a memorial service for the dead of the last days. I don't understand anything, but people seem angry.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 03:51:25 pm by XXSockXX »
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #665 on: February 21, 2014, 01:37:04 pm »

Reform I want to see - Revolutionary tribunal over existing justice system and then creation of the new one from the ground up....

__________

The main change in Ukraine happened anyway. People have changed

I am far from the front, has lost no close friends or relatives (People I knew died, but can't say that I was very attached to them) and yet I am a different person after everything that happened
Then we talk about guys who fought, who have seen deaths , who lost the loved ones.... That is a new nation that will not be silent ever again...

Amazingly, many are same as they were... I had a chat with a (former) former friend who asked me about the recent football match like nothing else happened yesterday... When we started to talk about the event of Maydain he said that those are paid and\or under amphetamines because "no sane person will attack an APC"  and angry on them because price for medicaments went up!
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

XXSockXX

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #666 on: February 21, 2014, 01:44:29 pm »

The main change in Ukraine happened anyway. People have changed
That is what takes the longest to change, people and mentalities. We even have people here who would argue that Eastern Germans have not all made the mental transition into a democratic system yet. And Eastern Germany had the easiest transition, in terms of reforms and money, of all former Eastern Block states. I'm not so sure about that specific argument, but generally I think that any real change takes much longer than people like to believe.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #667 on: February 21, 2014, 01:52:54 pm »

I don't say that creating justice system is an easy or fast way, but it is the only one... It's like in medicine. When organ is badly damaged transplantation may be the only option

BTW, Revolutionary tribunal doesn't mean hanging on the nearest tree by an angry mob
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

gogis

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #668 on: February 21, 2014, 01:55:09 pm »

Special note for Russians: I am biased

You somehow mixing up Russian goverment and people. Personally, I realised that something weird happening in Ukraine just yesterday, catching glimpse of news while eating my lunch. I dont see or catch anything related to Ukraine on my daily activities and all kind of small chit-chat. Please, fellow Ukrainians, stop thinking that we are in some kind of feud. It's not a feud when it's heated from one side.
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In Soviet Russia cigarette smokes you

Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #669 on: February 21, 2014, 02:11:08 pm »

gogis
Quote
You somehow mixing up Russian goverment and people
I don't mix Putin and Russians. After all ethical Russians and at least one Russian Citizen died fighting for my freedom.
That bolded part has prehistory in Sheb's thread, where some Russian(or was it Belorussian? Don't remember) accused me for whitewashing protesters

Quote
Please, fellow Ukrainians, stop thinking that we are in some kind of feud.
Absolutely, we have the same enemy: remains of the Soviet system. And while there are some disagreement between Russian and Ukrainian patriots it's not worse than Ukrainian-Polish or Ukrainian-Hungarian or Ukrainian-Romanian and manageable through dialogue


Recent news: Right Sector and other factions of Maydan said "fuck you" to leaving Yanukovitch in power
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

LordSlowpoke

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #670 on: February 21, 2014, 02:14:21 pm »

just how did ukrainians and hungarians manage to get in any sort of negative situation

did you guys do something horrible in 1956 that they resent you for or what?
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Sergarr

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #671 on: February 21, 2014, 02:16:36 pm »

Now Right Sector is probably the enemy of the goverment, opposition, and all the foreign ministers.

That Polish foreign minister did say that they all will die.

Also, what happened in 1956?
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._.

LordSlowpoke

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #672 on: February 21, 2014, 02:18:37 pm »

Also, what happened in 1956?

hungarians revolted against the warsaw pact

and then they got pacified by forces from friendly warsaw pact countries which couldn't allow such counterrevolutionary actions to stand

figured they might be still annoyed if they lumped in ukrainians with russians in regards to who was actually following the orders of pacifying said revolution
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Sergarr

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #673 on: February 21, 2014, 02:23:47 pm »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Inu_-0dcSU&feature=player_embedded

EU not gonna like that. I wonder how soon the right sector will be in the list of international terrorist organizations....

So, how soon until they make the Internationale their official hymn? *not serious*
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XXSockXX

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Re: Uprising in Ukraine
« Reply #674 on: February 21, 2014, 02:26:30 pm »

Also, what happened in 1956?

hungarians revolted against the warsaw pact

and then they got pacified by forces from friendly warsaw pact countries which couldn't allow such counterrevolutionary actions to stand

figured they might be still annoyed if they lumped in ukrainians with russians in regards to who was actually following the orders of pacifying said revolution
In addition to that, part of western Ukraine belonged to Hungary before WW1, or rather to the hungarian part of Austria-Hungary. Hungarian nationalists might want that back, though they mostly want territories with hungarian minorities back AFAIK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Inu_-0dcSU&feature=player_embedded

EU not gonna like that. I wonder how soon the right sector will be in the list of international terrorist organizations....

So, how soon until they make the Internationale their official hymn? *not serious*
How do you take that as left-wing? Looks rather right-wing to me.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 02:28:37 pm by XXSockXX »
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