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[webber]

I'm just wondering how much Yanukovych and co must pay per post. Must not be that much if you're posting this much.

I also remember you, and I realize now why you stopped posting for a couple years.

To Kogan Loloklam and his supporters: you are postulating the doctrine that:

1) there are no innocent civilians;
2) the people of the country are always responsible for government actions;
3) collateral losses are justified by the great purpose.

Congratulations, you are officially supporting terrorism.

You should heed your own words, it's easy to remember.

Wait, but you said you are ignoring my posts. Heeding one`s words you say?
Also, what is wrong with that clash? I also do remember it. The guy seriously postulated that if US is at war with some country, said country citizens must rise against government, or it`s legal to kill them. I tried to convince him, but he was so fierce that I sighed and left.

again. As you seem to repeat yourself i will repeat myself to: PROOF? Where is the actual, substantial proof of your claims?

I cannot just go and catch a yellow stripe guy to give you solid proofs.
I am postulating a THEORY, which, despite seeming too complicate, fits with the facts.

And now it`s my turn to ask some questions.
1) Why is the "police" shooting protesters that are not attacking anybodyat the moment? This is crime, this violates a TON of conventions and police officers KNOW that.
2) Why does the "police" shoot before even officially given permission and weapons?
3) Why the hell do some of said "policemen" wear civilian footwear? "Dear commander, I forgot my boots at home"?
4) Why do they use outdated guns? AKSU are not used anymore, they are unaccurate and too penetrative for a police weapon.
5) Why do some of them wear yellow stripes that are not a part of usual uniform?

You can call me a conspiracy theorist, but first please try to give a probable explanation to this facts.


edit: messed with forum engine a little.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Don't worry, I have my astroturf-approved footware on. Keep on keepin on, mate, you just help the opposition.

[webber]

There is some text on there backs, but i can't make it out.

Oh, I stated that earlier. "БЕРКУТ", Berkut.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

So, majority in the parliament voted  that police must cease fire and  internal forces\army should return to their bases immediately. Parliament has no right to order troops around like that but  times like that you must break some rules to normalize the situation. After all that's not a decision of random people but actually elected representatives, including 34 members of the ruling party


(Yeah self-imposed read-only mode failed, not it's officially do-not-argue mode. That will not fail)

[Ghazkull]

And now it`s my turn to ask some questions.
1) Why is the "police" shooting protesters that are not attacking anybodyat the moment? This is crime, this violates a TON of conventions and police officers KNOW that.
2) Why does the "police" shoot before even officially given permission and weapons?
3) Why the hell do some of said "policemen" wear civilian footwear? "Dear commander, I forgot my boots at home"?
4) Why do they use outdated guns? AKSU are not used anymore, they are unaccurate and too penetrative for a police weapon.
5) Why do some of them wear yellow stripes that are not a part of usual uniform?

1) Why? because the government doesnt prosecute officers firing on civilians. Because a good batch of the police officers are glorified mercenaries. Because Police Officers are also just human and after months of demonstrations have lots of pent up rage and at some point it doesn't matter if the enemy is armed or not he is the enemy. take any of those.

2) Because they were inofficially given permission and weapons, how else would they have them in the first place otherwise? Because the system is corrupt. Because they can? take any of those.

3) You still have not given me sufficient proof for that. The picture isnt accurate enough to discern whether these boots are truly civilian or not.

4) I am no specialist on weapons and especially not on the equipment of the various police groups ( because apparently there are a lot of different ones in Ukraine) so i cannot surely answer that. If i had to guess i'd say its due to living in a government which is deemed corrupt, i wouldn't wonder if funds for weapons get relocated and the police gets only outdated stuff. although again i am no specialist here and have no info regarding that.

5) To discern certain groups within them? Maybe Secret Police? Who knows? there is no evidence in the direction that they are "provocateurs" same as there is no evidence that they are "opposition" or "secret police". Again i have no indepth knowledge of the Ukraines Police System and its various groups and special factions so i cannot say with certainty whom they are. But applying Occam's Razor the logical purpose would be that they are police officers with a special purpose.

[Baffler]

By the way:
Gentlemen, I now adress to those of you who live outside the former Soviet Union. I want to ask if you have Maidan reports in your mass media (radio, TV, newspapers) or you get it via internet only. Because in Russia journalists say that a lot of europeans and americans keep calling Euromaidan a peaceful protest because they simply do not know what is actually going on right now.

If I want breaking news, I come here, mostly. As far as I know, the media is still mostly focused on the Olympics, but I rarely if ever look at them and haven't for some time. I live in the U.S, and almost everyone who I've talked to about it didn't even know anything was going on. I imagine that will soon change though.

[Owlbread]

Not really related, but I wonder, how will all these events affect a possibility of Scotland independence?

It most likely won't affect us. Crimea becoming independent might feature occasionally in the Scottish commentariat's articles (in the same way Kosovo does, inexplicably) but it's such a different situation there's really no comparison.

[scrdest]

And now it`s my turn to ask some questions.
1) Why is the "police" shooting protesters that are not attacking anybodyat the moment? This is crime, this violates a TON of conventions and police officers KNOW that.
2) Why does the "police" shoot before even officially given permission and weapons?
3) Why the hell do some of said "policemen" wear civilian footwear? "Dear commander, I forgot my boots at home"?
4) Why do they use outdated guns? AKSU are not used anymore, they are unaccurate and too penetrative for a police weapon.
5) Why do some of them wear yellow stripes that are not a part of usual uniform?

You can call me a conspiracy theorist, but first please try to give a probable explanation to this facts.

1) Government supporters had already been torturing people before. Which also kinda sorta is a crime and against several conventions. And since the police is the ones who are supposed to uphold the law, I don't exactly see who could punish them for breaking the law, and it's not likely that Yanukovych cares to prevent opposition deaths.

2) See above. Also, if the claims that this is a unit responsible directly to Yanukovych, this isn't even the police, those are black ops. The whole point of whom is to do illegal stuff for their government.

3) Meaningless, since as people responded multiple times, it's not like anyone who has access to the rest of the uniform wouldn't be able to take the boots as well. If it were protesters' provocateurs, it would be even less likely if anything, because them getting outed because of such a detail would carry a lot more risk than for the police.

4) Wikipedia begs to differ, claiming that each urban police foot patrol is issued at least one of those and that they are commonly used by special forces and air assault troops. All of which fit pretty well with the possibilities on who they might be exactly.

5) Someone mentioned covering up normal unit markings before. Or unit identification, if they are the special unit.

Frankly, the idea that they are used to signal to protesters that they are friendly is rather stupid, since it presumes that each and every protester is in on the conspiracy, not a single policeman gets the same idea as you, and government utterly fails to announce they are not, in fact, actual police.

And if any of them did get shot by a protester, you could always rationalize it as the protester not being in on the conspiracy. So it is unverifiable.

[Sheb]

1) Why is the "police" shooting protesters that are not attacking anybodyat the moment? This is crime, this violates a TON of conventions and police officers KNOW that.

We do not know if those guys shot people that were not attacking anybody at the moment. We also don't see them shooting the police.

2) Why does the "police" shoot before even officially given permission and weapons?

The statement only came this afternoon, but it said that police "had been issued with weapons". Notice the past tense.

3) Why the hell do some of said "policemen" wear civilian footwear? "Dear commander, I forgot my boots at home"?

It's probably not even civilian footwear. To me I just see black shoes. And you haven't explained why they'd have lots of uniform except for the combat shoes.

4) Why do they use outdated guns? AKSU are not used anymore, they are unaccurate and too penetrative for a police weapon.

You've not proved they're outdated. Plus, Berkut are also doing stuff like SWAT, so you'd expect them to have that kind of weapons.

5) Why do some of them wear yellow stripes that are not a part of usual uniform?

My bet is that it's to hide unit tag and make them harder to identify.

You can call me a conspiracy theorist, but first please try to give a probable explanation to this facts.

You make extravagant statement, the burden of proof is on you, not on us.

[GlyphGryph]

What I don't understand is - if these weren't police officers, wouldn't the government being falling head over heels to make that clear, shout it from the rooftops, instead of the leaving it to internet conspiracy theorists to puzzle out?

[XXSockXX]

So, majority in the parliament voted  that police must cease fire and  internal forces\army should return to their bases immediately. Parliament has no right to order troops around like that but  times like that you must break some rules to normalize the situation. After all that's not a decision of random people but actually elected representatives, including 34 members of the ruling party

Apparently they also called it the end of the anti-terror operation and prohibited the use of live ammo.
Hope this will end the bloodshed.

Negotiations are still ongoing in the background and will probably still take a while. EU sanctions are only going into effect later, so as to not disturb the negotiations.

As to the barely-visible-footwear-conspiracy: Does that mean I pay almost 18 bucks a month for publicly funded TV, just so that they can send a correspondent to Kiev to lie to my face?

I'm just watching a special report on German TV. Their correspondent in Kiev said, they had heard rumors that the guys with the yellow stripes are a special force called Omega units, who are directly responsible to the president and have been seen near the presidential seat.
As I understand it the yellow stripes cover up the normal unit tags. Correspondents have filmed these guys and seen them with the police force, but what exactly they are is not verified.

The correspondents have seen both police and rebels shooting at each other, which again underlines that there is no more need for cover-ups.

[olemars]

By the way:
Gentlemen, I now adress to those of you who live outside the former Soviet Union. I want to ask if you have Maidan reports in your mass media (radio, TV, newspapers) or you get it via internet only. Because in Russia journalists say that a lot of europeans and americans keep calling Euromaidan a peaceful protest because they simply do not know what is actually going on right now.

I can only speak of norwegian media, but they've been plastered with pictures and videos of Kiev burning for a couple of days now. There's no pretense that protesters nor police are particularly peaceful, with dozens of dead and wounded on both sides. There are quite a few norwegian reporters at the scene, including at that hotel that's mentioned every so often.

The 3 major online news sites have live feeds:
http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/1.11480927
http://direkte.vg.no/studio/demonstrasjonene-i-kiev
http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/uriks/Folg-utviklingen-i-Ukraina-direkte-7476312.html#.UwZu5oVuSj8

Here's are some pretty severe images from the square and nearby:
http://www.vg.no/bildespesial/spesial.php?id=11410

[Sheb]

I'm just watching a special report on German TV. Their correspondent in Kiev said, they had heard rumors that the guys with the yellow stripes are a special force called Omega units, who are directly responsible to the president and have been seen near the presidential seat.
As I understand it the yellow stripes cover up the normal unit tags. Correspondents have filmed these guys and seen them with the police force, but what exactly they are is not verified.

The correspondents have seen both police and rebels shooting at each other, which again underlines that there is no more need for cover-ups.

You don't understand. There is no police! The yellow armband guy were seen with other protesters masquerading as police.
For the last month it's just been protesters fighting with protesters. Hell, I'm sure Yanukovitch is a protester as well. Why else would he act in such a stupid fashion?

As for your correspondent, it's evident you should stop listening to public TV and subscribe to Fashion Magazine. THEY have the expertise to see the Great Shoes Conspiracy.

[Sheb]

This article claims our yellow armband friends are titushki, with the armbands being used to identify them in the absence of unit marking.

The article also speak of a report of Russian spetnatz in Ukraine in the magazine Tyzhden from Lviv. I'd find this really surprising myself.

[webber]

...

1,2,4,5 are plausible. As for 3:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

- long toecap
 - no high ancle
 - no lacing.

...

2) plausible
3) Hey, I already gave a possible explanation about feet size earlier
5) Plausible, but on some photos the stripes are not actually covering the markings. Also, the huge "BERKUT" on backs kind of busts the disguise.
4) Sorry, I failed here. People say this is AKMS, not AKSU.
1) Aaaand here you seem to be completely wrong. See, the whole Bulatov abduction story is believed to be a blatant hoax. I cannot give other explanation why a man appears after a week of tortures with a tiny piece of ear missing, a pair of scrathes, a pair of bruises and crucification marks which look like needle punctures.
Also there were reports he bought something online while missing. Only after that he started saying about the stolen credit card.
6) I never claimed the protesters are into the conspiracy. Yellow stripes were shooting them.

We do not know if those guys shot people that were not attacking anybody at the moment. We also don't see them shooting the police.

The TV showed protesters covering themselves with shields and being hit by bullets. They did not have firearms. I don`t think that was police - as I stated, it is clearly a crime.
Other paragraphs already answered.

You make extravagant statement, the burden of proof is on you, not on us.

I`m not asking you for proofs, I`m asking for logical explanation of the whole "stripes" case.