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[GlyphGryph]

Yeah, UR, people shouldn't call you a Nazi, but you shouldn't let yourself be provoked into personal attacks either. We know this is personal for you, but insults don't help with staying on topic.

I do not call the protesters Nazis to insult them.
I do this because they are nationalists.
They believe that their nation is superior to others.
They consider everybody who does not belong to their nation as sub-humans.
They have a "designated enemy", who is guilty in literally everything.
They have a simple solution for all their problems.

All of them are Nazis? Most of them? Some of them? There are Nazis among their ranks?

All of those mean very different things.

Also, not all nationalists are Nazis, which is a very particular affiiliation.

No one here has expressed doubt that their are fascists in the opposition camp - UR has even said so, that there are a number of them on the front lines.

But there's no more evidence that the opposition is majority or controlled by fascists than their is that the government is majority or controlled by communists, not that I've seen anyway. And you've got to admit, the government is checking off the "communist" (russian/chinese-style) checkboxes just as well as your list checks off the Nazi checkboxes.

And if the people of a country are gonna be under one or the other, history seems to indicate you're better off under the Nazis.

But all of this is irrelevant - do you have any evidence the opposition is actually a fascist movement, instead of merely containing Neo-nazis? Because it doesn't seem like there is any lack of totalitarian thugs on the government side either.

Some also say that the weaponry captured in Lvov from the looted army storehouses is delivered to Kiev, obviously for peaceful protest.

Nah, you got it wrong - it's for "political" purposes. You've got to admit having a lot of weapons you can pull out later makes a "peaceful" protest's message a lot stronger!

But honestly, it's not really peaceful anymore, and people have clearly become convinced that peaceful protests aren't, ultimately, going to succeed.

It's sort of the risk of ignoring, trivializing, and demeaning peaceful protests on the part of a standing administration - if it gets large enough and goes on long enough, and you make it utterly clear that peaceful protests will not work, then you're practically begging for the protest to stop being peaceful...

[webber]

Reporters have also seen and photographed police snipers though, and these seem to have killed most of the people who died at Maidan. That is what journalists and doctors report from Hotel Ukraine, which has also come under sniper fire. I have no reason to doubt that.

Excuse me, but I have to repeat again - in current situation somebody who is dressed like a police officer is not 100% police officer. Especially if he is doing something like shooting random people, unarmed protesters or foreign journalists.

Also, can anybody name a reason to use snipers against a riot? I mean, if you are completely immoral, it is much more efficient to use machineguns.

BTW yes, MIA has authorized lethal force, but on usual rules - for defence and after warnings.

Russian television channel Rossiya 24 reported that state of emergency is expected to be declared in Kiev in the upcoming hours.

Sorry, I doubt it. I hear news like this every 2-3 hours.

[Guardian G.I.]

The speaker of the Crimean parliament Vladimir Konstantinov stated today that Crimea will raise the question of seceding from Ukraine if the current Ukrainian government gets overthrown (link in Russian).

[Sheb]

Sniper let you frighten people/target people with molotovs etc etc.

Also, while anyone in a police uniform shooting a gun at the protester might not be police, anyone in civilian dress shooting a gun at the police might not be a protester. Agent provocateur exist on all sides.

Seeing things through the fog of war is night-on-impossible. Trying to assign blame an find out who's good and who's bad doesn't really make sense now. We need to figure how to end this. And the best way would be fresh elections under international supervision (Including Russia's) and a truth and reconciliation committee.

[10ebbor10]

Snip

I also kinda laughed at Russian media when some of them showed peaceful beginning of Maidan as a fachist putsch.
Stopped laughing when this came true.
Russian sources are not all totally controlled by evil Sta Putin and many of them supply information with no trace of bias.
Western media kept talking about "peaceful protest" even when Berkut officers were being burned alive during the first clash. I`m also yet to see Western reports about opposition deputies calling "everybody who has registered weapon" to join Maidan, or about their earlier calls to seek and burn police officers` families. I assume that not ALL of them are biased, but MOST are.
I cannot provide you any proofs about the recent victims, because I got this information "from third hands", but the early ones (Nigoyan for example) according to official reports were killed with buckshot from high angle and had powder traces on their clothes. So much government snipers.

Link
Basically, I think we can easily say that most media has a bias, but that Russian media is significantly worse. Additionally, so far you're not providing links either, so the things you're providing as fact might just be baseless rumours. So far we haven't seen any attacks on police officers families yet, and well, the western news entities are not hiding that protestors are firing back, and using molotocs. People dieing from burning wounds is to be expected.

...but also police snipers.

according to the reporters police snipers randomly shot them.

Sorry, but not everybody dressed in black and wieldeng a rifle is a police sniper. Also, as I said earlier, police did not have permission to use lethal force.
There are reports that they were given this permission and weapons recently. Don`t know if true.
Also remember that protesters captured unknown amount of police equipment, and now probably weapons and uniform. I think I don`t have to explain further.

I keep getting reports about both sides attacked by snipers. Someone is trying to escalate this even more...

I don't think that if police snipers were given permission to open fire, they would announce that, but anyway.

Snip

Yes, I know that the videos are too short to judge properly, but that`s all I have for now.

That man is Alexander Bashkalenko, who was appointed as a governor of Volyn by government 2-3 weeks ago to replace the previous governor, who resigned when his administration building was captured by protesters. The building was recently recaptured, Bashkalenko refused to resign, the rest you can see in video.
He still refuses to resign and is still being held captive.

As far as I know, the protestors wanted to get the government appointed governers out and return power to the elected ones. Not all that suprising that they force the new one  to resign.

Ahem.
I do not call the protesters Nazis to insult them.
I do this because they are nationalists.
They believe that their nation is superior to others.
They consider everybody who does not belong to their nation as sub-humans.
They have a "designated enemy", who is guilty in literally everything.
They have a simple solution for all their problems.

Calling all nationalist Nazis is a shoolboard example of an Argument ad Hitlerum. Basically, not all nationalist are Nazis.

Reporters have also seen and photographed police snipers though, and these seem to have killed most of the people who died at Maidan. That is what journalists and doctors report from Hotel Ukraine, which has also come under sniper fire. I have no reason to doubt that.

Excuse me, but I have to repeat again - in current situation somebody who is dressed like a police officer is not 100% police officer. Especially if he is doing something like shooting random people, unarmed protesters or foreign journalists.

Also, can anybody name a reason to use snipers against a riot? I mean, if you are completely immoral, it is much more efficient to use machineguns.

BTW yes, MIA has authorized lethal force, but on usual rules - for defence and after warnings.

Not all rioters are equal. If you manage to take out the leaders, or the people who are bolstering others, you can significantly weaken the protest.
Additionally, snipers have plausible deniability, especially with the current confusion. Machine gun fire is a bit harder to cover up.

[XXSockXX]

Reporters have also seen and photographed police snipers though, and these seem to have killed most of the people who died at Maidan. That is what journalists and doctors report from Hotel Ukraine, which has also come under sniper fire. I have no reason to doubt that.

Excuse me, but I have to repeat again - in current situation somebody who is dressed like a police officer is not 100% police officer. Especially if he is doing something like shooting random people, unarmed protesters or foreign journalists.

Also, can anybody name a reason to use snipers against a riot? I mean, if you are completely immoral, it is much more efficient to use machineguns.

The reason is simply that using snipers achieves the same thing - spreading panic and causing retreat - without causing a massacre like machine guns would.
It is confirmed that police fired at the protesters, they claim it was in self-defense. Reports seem to confirm that protesters who were advancing against the police were shot down by snipers from police ranks. Some policemen did use kalshnikovs too when they were retreating. You could argue that some of this was in self-defense, but it is an established fact now that both sides were or are shooting at each other.

[Sinistar]

I thank you for deciding to continue this debate. I know that being involved in crisis personally is a lot different than than watching it from afar, in front of monitor or television.

I do remember reading yesterday that some time ago certain prominent member of Right Party (I think) requested all owners of licensed guns to join them in effort to defend the people on the square. I think I read that on BBC? But sadly, I do not have a link at hand right now to prove my claim.

There are videos already circulating around, that show people in uniforms and sniper rifles being in position to shoot. Haven't seen any actually take a shot and I can't confirm they are police snipers, but they are always amidst large group of full-riot-gear dressed figures that look like policemen...how old/new this videos are, I cannot say. But this does warrant snipers were probably at least present at the scene, taking shots or not.

Latest news I heard on Euronews, Alexander Bashkalenko was released.

*sigh*
All that being said, media war really is the worst. It's really hard to know, who to trust.

[XXSockXX]

There is no media war as far as I reckon. All my German news sources as well as Reuters and the BBC are merely aggregating and trying to verify information. They are not favoring either side, they just agree that violence is bad. Russian media seems to be far more polarizing as far as I can tell.

[Dutchling]

Some of my German FB friends have changed their profile pictures:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I bet the Ukrainians will be very grateful for that

[Sinistar]

You are right, saying there's a media "war" out there is a bit silly.

[XXSockXX]

Some of my German FB friends have changed their profile pictures:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I bet the Ukrainians will be very grateful for that

On the other hand a parliamentary debate today led to a twitter fight (!) between the Greens and the Left party, with the latter accusing the former of supporting anti-semitic right-wing extremists. So there is that too.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

You are right, saying there's a media "war" out there is a bit silly.

Yeah, it's just Russia lying about opposition [and supporters like 'All nationalists are nazis' fellow who shows the ability of such people to disconnect themselves from reality] and people like us who actually give enough of a shit to pay attention to such things.

Also I sure wish people wouldn't call everyone Nazis, should I go over exactly who they were again for those people [Russia loyalists] who forgot? Fascism doesn't come in one flavor.

[webber]

...do you have any evidence that the opposition is actually a fascist movement?

Beaten WW2 veterans in Lviv? Torch marches in the name of Bendera?  Recent Bendera`s portrait in captured Kiev administration building?
Also, sorry, but you are all wrong about communism and such. Especially the "nazis are better" thing.

Not all rioters are equal. If you manage to take out the leaders, or the people who are bolstering others, you can significantly weaken the protest.
Additionally, snipers have plausible deniability, especially with the current confusion. Machine gun fire is a bit harder to cover up.

Sniper let you frighten people/target people with molotovs etc etc.

They aren`t attacking leaders or such. Just random attacks on both sides. Looks like somebody is heating this all up. Maybe we cannot tell for sure this is opposition`s provocation, but ask yourself - who benefits from this? Government?


Just viewed the footage about some Berkut officers using firearms. Kind of confused by the yellow stripes on the uniform - this totally isn`t usual outfit. Disguise? Pretended disguise?

Some of my German FB friends have changed their profile pictures:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I bet the Ukrainians will be very grateful for that

I remember an old picture about Fukushima accident. Bunch of dudes changing their avatars to "Japan, we are with you" and Japanese girl near the ruined house like "OH WOW THANKS THERE IS MUCH BETTER NOW".
Also, let me play evil here. So, Ukrainian citizens who do not support the association are not taken into account?

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Also, sorry, but you are all wrong about communism and such. Especially the "nazis are better" thing.

We're all wrong and you're right. Let us in on your all encompassing knowledge and please, be compassionate.

Also, let me play evil here. So, Ukrainian citizens who do not support the association are not taken into account?

Ah, I remember that. GG actually said 'we should ostracize people who don't support the opposition' oh wait, no one said anything like that nor did anyone imply that.  The third group is one of the most important as no matter what happens here the neutral party will still need to participate in the country after this is done.

Tell me, which do you prefer: Your policies being vetted and under the control of the Kremlin, or letting your elected representatives be able to actually represent the country instead of Russia's geopolitical interests, and being worse off because of it?

[Sheb]

I've seen a bunch of too.


Anyway, the UPA also fought the Nazis you know? Bandera himself was arrested by the Nazis.