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[Ukrainian Ranger]

Don't take this wrong, but I actually envy those living in Ukraine right now.

I know that feeling. Felt exactly like that looking at events in Turkey. But I tell you that : If someone told me half year ago that we will have such events happening in Ukraine I'd say : "Dreamer: our people are too apathetic for that. You need years to build up something like that"

Funny thing is, about a year ago this actually happened. After mass protests, prime minister resigned, we had early elections, the opposition party came in power and all is right and dandy now. Except of course, it isn't. It's all the same as before.

Ukraine had that shit back in 2004.  We brought Yushchenko in power and decided that we done everything we could. It was wrong, we should have been on the streets again, weeks later after the first actions (or rather inactions) of Yushchenko

Problem here - Revolution is about changing how system works, not putting opposition on government's place.
It's like improving your OS. You can make your Windows 98 slightly better by installing better software\service packs (reforms) but sooner or later you need to do a "format c:" thing. Same goes for a badly damaged OS.
Ukraine haven't reinstalled it's OS right from the time it was installed by commies in 1920s. Not only it wasn't good when it was installed. not only it is badly outdated, not only it has a lot of poorly made hacks to make it work with software (ideas) created for other OSes - It is badly infected by viruses.

____________________________________________________

If a "peaceful assembly" consists of people with clubs and firebombs - who intend to break into a government building by force - it's not a peaceful assembly.

Do you have proofs that they planned to break into the parliament? I think no. Learn what presumption of innocence means.
Clubs and firebombs are for self-defense. It is a basic human right. "Police" proved it ability and willingness to attack, badly injure and outright torture unarmed protesters. Ukrainians are not cattle to tolerate that

Google 1992 Los Angeles riots.

I know that Russian medias call events happening in Ukraine riots. We call that uprising against tyranny. Something that is absolutely legal in USA, choose another country for your example
Americans are a very good nation to follow their way of building  and maintaining democracy. Like that - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_(1946) or that - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Committee_of_Vigilance

[Mictlantecuhtli]

I think you're forgetting how it all BEGAN. They used to be peaceful.

He's just doing what he came to this topic to do in the first place, spout off nonsense.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Spoiler: map (click to show/hide)

[MarcAFK]

Personal opinion.
If people tried this in the US they would be gassed, shot with rubber bullets, water cannoned, smoked, capsicum sprayed, dazzled, deafened, herded with horses, and shoved with riot shields, then if anyone had clubs or petrol bombs they would be shot with actual bullets for carrying deadly weapons with intent for murder.
The only reason this doesn't happen in Ukraine is lack of manpower and actual fear the government has of demonstrations turning into widespread open revolt, also bad PR.
The US wouldn't care about the PR because the rioters are just "violent criminals and terrorists".
There is a good history of regime change being caused by riots like this which drag on for a long time while the government is either scared of or literally unable to openly oppose. In a few cases the government collapses without full anarchy, with not much worse than what's going on in Ukraine right now.

[10ebbor10]

Pretty sure they tried most of these. They haven't openly shot people yet, but most of the other things have happened.

[XXSockXX]

So apparently the situation is heating up again, three people died in clashes today and the government has issued an ultimatum to protesters to end the violence.

BTW the comparisons with riots in the US aren't really helpful, the US has not really been in a situation comparable to this.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

If people tried this in the US they would be gassed, shot with rubber bullets, water cannoned, smoked, capsicum sprayed, dazzled, deafened, herded with horses, and shoved with riot shields, then if anyone had clubs or petrol bombs they would be shot with actual bullets for carrying deadly weapons with intent for murder.

That depends. If that group would have support of a large chunk of a nation including leaders of either Democrats or Republicans... I am very unsure. Americans have enough legal assault rifles in their hands to not piss them like that
And when a group that has almost no support start fighting police, yep it has right and duty to use force back. But even in that case police can't  torture, use more force then necessary to arrest\neutralize troublemakers, and cooperate with (or tolerate) pro-government thugs


Edited out ,y pessimistic predictions

[GlyphGryph]

Pretty sure they tried most of these. They haven't openly shot people yet, but most of the other things have happened.

Actually they did, but it seemed to be a case of individual security officers loading bullets and their bosses looking the other way and covering up for them, rather than being actual official policy.

[Mephansteras]

Personal opinion.
If people tried this in the US they would be gassed, shot with rubber bullets, water cannoned, smoked, capsicum sprayed, dazzled, deafened, herded with horses, and shoved with riot shields, then if anyone had clubs or petrol bombs they would be shot with actual bullets for carrying deadly weapons with intent for murder.
The only reason this doesn't happen in Ukraine is lack of manpower and actual fear the government has of demonstrations turning into widespread open revolt, also bad PR.
The US wouldn't care about the PR because the rioters are just "violent criminals and terrorists".
There is a good history of regime change being caused by riots like this which drag on for a long time while the government is either scared of or literally unable to openly oppose. In a few cases the government collapses without full anarchy, with not much worse than what's going on in Ukraine right now.

Except that peaceful protests in the US aren't cracked down on in the same way, so they don't turn violent the way the Ukrainian ones have.

Sure, if a violent protest kicked off the National Guard would be called in to restore order. But a protest that starts peaceful turning violent due to government actions against them is a very different thing.

[XXSockXX]

The governments ultimatum has passed without any action by security forces, but the opposition has asked women and children to leave Maidan square. Media talks of 7-9 dead now, including 2 policemen, also many injured.
This doesn't look so great, but negotiations are still scheduled for tomorrow.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

The governments ultimatum has passed without any action by security forces, but the opposition has asked women and children to leave Maidan square.

I don't think that bringing APCs with high-caliber machineguns in the center of Kiyv and actively arming "police" with AK 74s is not an action

but negotiations are still scheduled for tomorrow.

All negotiations used by the enemy only to regroup and prepare for another attack, so what the point?


What I dislike most is that after hearing a statement from "police" that two of them are dead two, I am actually hoping that this is true. I'd wish to to not be happy to hear about people dying. But I can't. Those young guys for me are same like another young guys from Munich or Berlin were for my grandfather back in 1941. Enemies that should be dead
And I have no doubts that I am not the only one who has that kind of attitude

[XXSockXX]

Right, the government is arming the police now and - according to some reports - even moving tanks toward Kiev. But so far they have not attempted to clear Maidan square.
I would say if negotiations are still supposed to be happening, it's a sign that maybe they won't start shooting on a larger scale. Yanukovych wouldn't have anything to negotiate about after something like that.

Reports about the dead policemen are a bit unclear, at least one policeman was shot in the neck, the other one might have been an employee at Yanukovych's headquarters.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Well, they kindly asked women to leave the Independence square because they are starting anti-terroristic operation. Usage of that term alone says everything about their plans

[XXSockXX]

Hm, German media attributed the thing about women and children to Klitschko, and made it look like just a precaution. Reporting is generally pretty Klitschko-centric here.

[MarcAFK]

Anti terrorist operations?
Sounds like things are going to get very bloody, I was hoping for a more rational resolution, but frankly I didnt believe they would have waited this long before pushing back hard.