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Author Topic: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread  (Read 306003 times)

Helgoland

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Re: Events in Ukraine
« Reply #255 on: February 14, 2014, 08:43:16 am »

a) I am ready to be collateral damage if that will be good for my nation. I am not saying I am not afraid of death but I am ready.
If you're not willing to die for something, what are you living for, eh? It's sad that this idea seems so alien to most people.
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

XXSockXX

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Re: Events in Ukraine
« Reply #256 on: February 14, 2014, 09:32:56 am »

a) I am ready to be collateral damage if that will be good for my nation. I am not saying I am not afraid of death but I am ready.
If you're not willing to die for something, what are you living for, eh? It's sad that this idea seems so alien to most people.
It's not the general idea that is alien to me. Just dying for an abstract cause, like a state, a nation, an ideology or an idea seems like a huge waste. The good of the nation is too fuzzy a term, dying to defend my home, yeah maybe, dying to defend Germany at the Hindukush, no way.
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Owlbread

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Re: Events in Ukraine
« Reply #257 on: February 14, 2014, 10:09:36 am »

Unless that flag (and also the FSA flag - that one was also displayed) isn't just someone's idea of scare tactics... I'm not sure why you're celebrating.

Those people aren't your friends, unless you are also a radical islamist like them.

Actually, you should be fearing for your life. If those things are for real, it means that the grown-up terrorists have arrived and the probability of a catastrophic escalation is higher than ever. And in that event, you're liable to become collateral damage.

They are mostly likely not radical Islamists. That is the Republican flag, something you rarely see these days given that most Chechen secular nationalists on the ground in the Caucasus pay lip service to the Emirate and those who don't are hunted and executed. If they were radical Islamists they would have flown the perfectly useable Islamist flag.

Instead of bleating about terrorism maybe you should try to understand the Chechen conflict a bit more and the different factions within the Chechen resistance movement. The Russian government understands it, that's why they made sure they killed every single powerful leader in the Republican/Nationalist camp and only left the Islamists in charge.

I remain convinced that the way to begin to solve the problems in the Northern Caucasus lie in Russia pragmatically appealing to the old nationalist camps and agreeing to support them in independent rule. The nationalists are key here, too many do not understand them.

Ukrainian nationalists and Chechen separatists are united by their furious hatred towards Russia. Hatred towards Russia brings a lot of different people and political forces closer together.

Chechen nationalists you mean. You seem unable to use that term for some reason.

You also say "hatred towards Russia", which is interesting when you consider the position of Dudayev's youngest son Degi who speaks of his love of the Russian language, his love of Russian literature, philosophy etc despite being a prominent activist for the Nationalist cause. Hatred does come into it, but to reduce it to that is oversimplifying the conflict. It's more a matter of "uniting against a common enemy".
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 10:26:25 am by Owlbread »
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Events in Ukraine
« Reply #258 on: February 14, 2014, 10:33:10 am »

XXSockXX
Quote
dying to defend Germany at the Hindukush, no way.
If country sends its citizens to fight over some foreign land it doesn't worth dying for. Of cause if  those aren't professional soldiers who chose to risk their lives for money.

Quote
Just dying for an abstract cause, like a state, a nation, an ideology or an idea seems like a huge waste.
Imagine a situation,
a) You know that it is likely that Neo-Nazi will come back in power in Germany, bring Hitler's ways back start World War Three and grind dozens of millions in deathcamps
b) You know that you can avert it or reduce chances of that happening by giving your life away

Will you give your life away? If so, You are ready to die for an abstract thing.
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

XXSockXX

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Re: Events in Ukraine
« Reply #259 on: February 14, 2014, 10:54:22 am »

XXSockXX
Quote
dying to defend Germany at the Hindukush, no way.
If country sends its citizens to fight over some foreign land it doesn't worth dying for. Of cause if  those aren't professional soldiers who chose to risk their lives for money.
Well, but that is not as easy as it seems. It basically means you as an individual have to make up your mind every time there is a military conflict. Germans were not told, "we're invading Poland now", they were told "Poland attacked us" and people actually believed it. Same with Afghanistan, are we fighting over foreign land or are we defending our security at home against terrorists? That is all up to interpretation.

Imagine a situation,
a) You know that it is likely that Neo-Nazi will come back in power in Germany, bring Hitler's ways back start World War Three and grind dozens of millions in deathcamps
b) You know that you can avert it or reduce chances of that happening by giving your life away

Will you give your life away? If so, You are ready to die for an abstract thing.
In that scenario I would probably leave the country, because, as history shows, there is not much an individual could do in such a situation. I see my responsability rather in not letting such a scenario happen in the first place.

I thought a lot about stuff like that as a kid, because when I grew up WW3 still seemed like a possibility (at least to a kid). I thought I would be ready to defend my home area, but I wouldn't have liked to fight at the front, partially because it would have meant to fight my own relatives in the GDR. I guess that is ultimately where my scepticism regarding that kind of thing comes from.
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scrdest

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Re: Events in Ukraine
« Reply #260 on: February 14, 2014, 10:59:22 am »

In that scenario I would probably leave the country, because, as history shows, there is not much an individual could do in such a situation. I see my responsability rather in not letting such a scenario happen in the first place.

Doesn't history show that only because if it went otherwise history wouldn't have much to say about that?
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XXSockXX

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Re: Events in Ukraine
« Reply #261 on: February 14, 2014, 11:06:58 am »

Oh, history has a lot to say about people who died trying to fight the Nazis without achieving much. I tend to think that at a time where dying for a cause becomes a possibility, it's probably already too late. Maybe I'm egoistic in that regard, but I have only this one life, so I'd rather not lose it for a future I will not live to see.
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Kicior

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Re: Events in Ukraine
« Reply #262 on: February 14, 2014, 11:23:59 am »

I thought a lot about stuff like that as a kid, because when I grew up WW3 still seemed like a possibility (at least to a kid). I thought I would be ready to defend my home area, but I wouldn't have liked to fight at the front, partially because it would have meant to fight my own relatives in the GDR. I guess that is ultimately where my scepticism regarding that kind of thing comes from.
But... but... the hypotetical 3rd world war would determine whether Europe/world becomes communistic or not, right (at least for some time)? So not resisting the Warsaw Pact armies would actually be against your relatives in West Germany, I guess?
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Events in Ukraine
« Reply #263 on: February 14, 2014, 11:32:13 am »

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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

XXSockXX

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Re: Events in Ukraine
« Reply #264 on: February 14, 2014, 11:35:46 am »

I thought a lot about stuff like that as a kid, because when I grew up WW3 still seemed like a possibility (at least to a kid). I thought I would be ready to defend my home area, but I wouldn't have liked to fight at the front, partially because it would have meant to fight my own relatives in the GDR. I guess that is ultimately where my scepticism regarding that kind of thing comes from.
But... but... the hypotetical 3rd world war would determine whether Europe/world becomes communistic or not, right (at least for some time)? So not resisting the Warsaw Pact armies would actually be against your relatives in West Germany, I guess?
My relatives in Western Germany have always had emergency exit plans. I come from a line of paranoid and unpatriotic people I guess. (Parts of the family had to flee westward twice, after WW1 and WW2 respectively, that's probably why.)
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 11:42:30 am by XXSockXX »
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Kicior

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Re: Events in Ukraine
« Reply #265 on: February 14, 2014, 11:43:15 am »

I don't mean to insult you or judge you or something. Let's end the OT.
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XXSockXX

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Re: Events in Ukraine
« Reply #266 on: February 14, 2014, 12:04:54 pm »

I don't mean to insult you or judge you or something. Let's end the OT.
No worries, I'm not insulted or feeling judged at all.  :) Just trying to explain German pacifism, which as it turns out is even becoming a problem for the military, since conscription was abolished. But yeah, let's end to OT, back to Ukraine.

That's actually both badass and cute.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 12:08:21 pm by XXSockXX »
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Descan

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Re: Events in Ukraine
« Reply #267 on: February 14, 2014, 03:49:39 pm »

The look in her eyes is like "Uhm... Whooo are you?"

:P
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Mr. Strange

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Re: Events in Ukraine
« Reply #268 on: February 14, 2014, 04:25:06 pm »

I haven't paid as much attention to recent events in Ukraine as I should have so I know next to nothing about what's going on there, but anyone wanting to distance themselfs from over clingy Moscow has earned my support out of principle.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Events in Ukraine
« Reply #269 on: February 15, 2014, 04:53:56 am »

Some guys here may find that interesting
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.
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