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[10ebbor10]

Sadly, agreements have to be made with the government, not with the people.

That is solved by recognizing some new group as a new government, isn't it?

And I guess that would happen if the government starts randomly shooting into the masses. They seem to be at least somewhat concerned about their credibility, otherwise they would not have apologized for that video of the police abusing a protester.

Doubt it actually. Not only is the opposition to divided for such a thing to happen, but I very much doubt the EU's capability to convince all it's member states to make such a statement.

[Guardian G.I.]

Are the regional governments independent of eachother or do they have a provisional government they now answer to?

We have rather weird situation.
Regional governments have two parts - one is elected at local elections another is appointed by president. With every year the ones appointed by the president got more and more power, turning elected mayors into nothing

Elected part of the regional governments is under opposition control by default, that's buildings of appointed governors are captured. Mostly that means that people recognize only elected local governments

While there are some talks about united provisional opposition government, one is not created.

Already an attempt has been made to create one, it's called "People's Council of Ukraine".

[Ukrainian Ranger]

I consider this councils to be empty words as long as there are no clear" We are the only legitimate government of Ukraine" statement

Unfortunately leaders of our parliamentary opposition are cowards, they know that such words will force them to go to the end, whatever will it be

[Dutchling]

Spoiler: "Komrad Ruslan, those people look cold, let's help them" (click to show/hide)

[XXSockXX]

Doubt it actually. Not only is the opposition to divided for such a thing to happen, but I very much doubt the EU's capability to convince all it's member states to make such a statement.

At least currently the (parliamentary) opposition seems somewhat united. And it becomes less and less about the EU for them, the more tyrannical the government behaves. Looks like the masses are driving the opposition to act, so they will have to try to act united or they will lose control soon.

[10ebbor10]

Anyway, let's skip ahead for a moment. The oppositions goals are, IIRC, immediate elections and such. Seems quite similar to the demands they made after the 2004 revolution. Any arguments for what's going to be different this time?

[Comrade P.]

This is a PTW. If I'll have something to say, I'll say that. Don't have a complete opinion for now.

[stabbymcstabstab]

Ptw

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Anyway, let's skip ahead for a moment. The oppositions goals are, IIRC, immediate elections and such. Seems quite similar to the demands they made after the 2004 revolution. Any arguments for what's going to be different this time?

IMHO it's too late for half-measures like that. Even if Yanukovich will say "total amnesty, cancellation of the new laws  and immediate elections" and opposition agree to that, the radical core of protests will say "No way!" He lied too many times to believe anything he may offer

[Comrade P.]

IMHO it's too late for half-measures like that. Even if Yanukovich will say "total amnesty, cancellation of the new laws  and immediate elections" and opposition agree to that, the radical core of protests will say "No way!" He lied too many times to believe anything he may offer

So, what is the point of radical core then? I just don't get it. To me, they sound like "down with Yanukovich, then... fuck that, down with Yanukovch"

Also, I often hear something like: "Those Euromaidan-ers are paid to do so, blah-blah-blah". Even that I dislike the ugly way things went out in streets myself, when I hear something like that, I remember that episode from "Обитаемый остров" (Habited island, by Acrady and Boris Strugatsky), when Gai and Mak are speaking:

Spoiler: Origial abstract. In russian. (click to show/hide)

 - Как это - не веришь? - сказал  Гай,  хмурясь  еще  сильнее.  -  Ну, предположим, мне ты  можешь  не  верить,  я  -  человек  маленький.  Ну  а господину ротмистру? А бригадиру? Радио,  наконец?  Как  можно  не  верить Отцам? Они никогда не лгут.
     Максим сбросил комбинезон, подошел к окну и стал смотреть  на  улицу, прижавшись лбом к стеклу и держась обеими руками за раму.
     - Почему обязательно - лгут? - проговорил он наконец. -  А  если  они ошибаются?
     - Ошибаются... - с недоумением повторил Гай, глядя ему в голую спину. - Кто ошибается? Отцы? Вот чудак... Отцы никогда не ошибаются!
     - Ну, пусть, - сказал Мак, оборачиваясь. -  Мы  не  об  Отцах  сейчас говорим. Мы говорим о выродках. Вот ты,  например...  Ты  умрешь  за  свое дело, если понадобится?
     - Умру, - сказал Гай. - И ты умрешь.
     - Правильно! Умрем. Но ведь за дело умрем - не за паек гвардейский  и не за деньги. Дайте мне хоть тысячу миллионов ваших бумажек, не  соглашусь я ради этого идти на смерть!.. Неужели ты согласишься?
     - Нет, конечно, - сказал Гай. Чудачина  этот  Мак,  вечно  что-нибудь выдумает...
     - Ну?
     - Что - ну?
     - Ну как же! - сказал Мак с нетерпением. - Ты за деньги  не  согласен умирать. Я за деньги не согласен умирать. А выродки, значит, согласны! Что за чепуха!
     - Так то - выродки! -  сказал  Гай  проникновенно.

Spoiler: Erzats-translation by me. Still better than Google. (click to show/hide)

 - What do you mean - you don't belive? - said Gai, frowning - okay, you can disbelieve me, I'm a small man [meant: my opinion may be disregarded]. But what about rittmeister? Brigadier? Radio, at last? How can you dibelieve the Fathers? They never lie.
   Maxim threw away his overall, reached the window and started staring at the street, holding the frame with both his hands.
 - Why they should lie? - he said finally - What if they are mistaken?
 - Mistaken... repeated Gai with perplexity, watching at his bare back - Who is mistaken? The Fathers? Wierd one you are... Fathers are never mistaken!
 - Let it be so, - said Mak, turning back - We arу not talking about them now. We are talking about bantlings. You, for instance... would you die for your idea if needed?
 - I would - said Gai - And you would.
 - That's right! We'll die. But we'll die for our idea, not for guardsman's ration and not for money. Give me thousands of millions of your puny papers, I won't die for that! I hardly believe you will...
 - Of course not! - answered Gai. Wierd one that Mak is, always comes up with something...
 - And?
 - What?
 - And what is it we have? - said Mak unpatiently - You're not going to die for money. I'm not going to die for money. And bantlings are, aren't they? That's nonsense!
 - Bu they are bantlings! - said Gai penetratingly.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

So, what is the point of radical core then? I just don't get it. To me, they sound like "down with Yanukovich, then... fuck that, down with Yanukovch"

I think punishment of  everyone responsible for deaths and immediate resignation of Yanukovich  is the minimum to stop ongoing protests. Too many deaths for "OK, let's return to pre-protests situation and run elections"

[Sheb]

PTW.

[Valikdu]

I think punishment of  everyone responsible for deaths

...
Yanukovich is impotent, not retarded.
He would have realized that, if people were to get shot, there would inevitably be an escalation of violence. Which may eventually lead to him dying. So, he probably didn't give orders to shoot people.

And your people probably realize that, too. Of course, it's too convenient an excuse for an escalation to pass up, right?

[Comrade P.]

So, what is the point of radical core then? I just don't get it. To me, they sound like "down with Yanukovich, then... fuck that, down with Yanukovch"

I think punishment of  everyone responsible for deaths and immediate resignation of Yanukovich  is the minimum to stop ongoing protests. Too many deaths for "OK, let's return to pre-protests situation and run elections"

So... and who is going to rule the country meanwhile? Just promise that there will be no banners holding swasticas over Ukraine. Again.

[Descan]

* Descan waves a tiny Ukrainian flag.