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Author Topic: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor  (Read 48899 times)

Parsely

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #60 on: September 10, 2014, 12:56:20 pm »

I'm pretty sure the Ring Wraiths are just the Nine, the men given rings, who "faded" from using them too much. Source: Second and third chapters of The Fellowship of the Ring.
Ayup. There's most definitely other wraiths (dead peoples who came back to life because necromancy or extreme dishonor or being killed by or near someone super evil like Sauron ("dying in darkness")), but I guess it makes a lot of sense that their powers and characteristics differ greatly from what the bearers of the Rings of Power were shown to have.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 12:58:50 pm by GUNINANRUNIN »
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #61 on: September 10, 2014, 01:07:28 pm »

No they're not, otherwise I'm sure dennis' list up there or the wiki I'm looking at would say so. Not to mention they don't even resemble the Ring Wraiths in appearance.

Well we know that dead men can't return to life in Middle-Earth, so surely that means that being a wraith is somehow different from being brought back to life, or maybe Tolkien's definition of 'brought back to life' is different from ours somehow (can't imagine what that would imply)..

That's the issue with catch all terms and movies. We can't compare the description of book-wraiths and the movie ones, either. Gorlim, the first recorded wraith, could have looked exactly as the Dunbarrow apparitions did. We don't really know. He is stated as the first instance of a wraith, yet has no malice or evil in his appearance, just regret which keeps his spirit attached to the world, like a certain group of men from Dunbarrow. That's why I've always believed the wraiths to be a relatively benign phenomenon before the Ringwraith corruption. This is a subject to debate, Dunbarrow men were incorporeal but otherwise entirely wraith-like. The thing about LOTR undead is they come in a small variety of flavors. All undead spirits that continue to exist in LOTR are wraiths, basically. The Dunbarrow men being a weakest form of the appearance, being unable to physically affect their surroundings. Had Sauron known of the Dunbarrow men for a long enough period, I'm not so sure they would have stayed as incorporeal ghosts.

Even hinted at by the books and character themselves;
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In The Return of the King, Gimli said, " Strange and wonderful I thought it that the designs of Mordor should be overthrown by such wraiths of fear and darkness. With its own weapons was it worsted!"
Chalk it up to ignorance of undead or fine insight by Gimli, that's the fun.

Especially since being 'undead' is such an odd concept in LOTR, what with persistence of spirit with the motivation of their lives still being held. That's about as alive as anything can ever be. It could easily be stated that the Dunbarrow men were a weaker form of wraith, sans Sauron manipulation. We don't actually have any reason to believe wraiths were anything besides ghosts until Sauron created the Ringwraiths.

The Dunbarrow men being immortal without ring intervention is the odd one. It could be assumed honour-breaker curses are stronger than mortality in LOTR if they are forged by strong enough people [or old enough..? Less removed from the divines back in the first ages, as well, which would explain the strength of their residual magic in comparison to Fourth age+ magic].

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And it wasn't his possession of Talion that made him become a wraith or what makes him undead, which is sort of what it sounds like when you put it that way. I'm pretty sure he can exist outside of Tallion since he's been a wraith for hundreds of years by the time they're thrown together. Tallion was going to die and then he was possessed by Celebrimbor for some yet-to-be-stated reason which prevented his passing, and at that point they're inhabiting the same body (lord knows why since a wraith shouldn't need to piggyback some other mortal in order to manifest physically and affect the world, especially one as "powerful" as he).

I'll put my money on Tallion being a far-removed descendant or some such, just to shoehorn in real connection between the two.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 01:15:57 pm by Mictlantecuhtli »
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Parsely

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #62 on: September 10, 2014, 01:13:31 pm »

Quote
The Dunbarrow men being immortal without ring intervention is the odd one. It could be assumed honour-breaker curses are stronger than mortality in LOTR.
The Oath-Breakers were cursed by Isildur after the war, when he held the Ring, IIRC, so that could have something to do with it.
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bluwolfie

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #63 on: September 11, 2014, 12:51:08 am »

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No, the main character, a Ranger, was killed by the armies of Sauron and became a wraith somehow. He's not possessed or being helped by a wraith or something weird like that.


What? No, that is just plain wrong. Have you even done any research on the game? The wraith is a separate entity and is the reason Talion keeps coming back to life. WTF are you even talking about?

I'm starting to get the feeling that half the people bashing the game in this topic haven't even looked into the game deeply enough to warrant such hate.
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dennislp3

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #64 on: September 11, 2014, 01:46:52 am »

That is normal and expected on the internet lol...haters gonna hate
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Majestic7

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #65 on: September 11, 2014, 02:10:07 am »

People involved with the Rings become wraiths; Aragorn or Gandalf tell Frodo that had he died from the Morgul knife, he had become a wraith under the command of the Witch-king of Angmar. It was a little unclear whether this was because Frodo had used the One Ring or because of the Morgul blade itself turning those dying from it into undead slaves. I took it as being connected with the One Ring.

I think the Dunbarrow men became wraiths due to Isildur using the Ring to curse them. There are other undead in LotR though, such as the creepers in the marshes near Mordor or wights. However, most of the spirits can't do anything to the physical world while wights and vampires are completely physical. As such wraiths are special. Not to mention them being essentially immortal; the Nine have been 'killed' multiple times, after which they just take some time to form up new presence in the physical world.
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LoSboccacc

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #66 on: September 11, 2014, 02:21:52 am »


I'm starting to get the feeling that half the people bashing the game in this topic haven't even looked into the game deeply enough to warrant such hate.

Yup let's stick to what we know.

Currently known is you have a target to kill and you can trick henchmen in various way to unwittingly assist you.

What Worries me is that every combination of actions is to be coded unless you have a hard limit on how many henchmen you can control. Which would suck.

Also there is the legitimate question of how much each of these dynamic map actually cost in production. There is another unknown which is: will all mission be like it, or some sparse level will be dynamic while majority will be kill all low tier enemies while going from a to b?
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Parsely

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #67 on: September 11, 2014, 03:08:21 pm »

I think the Dunbarrow men became wraiths due to Isildur using the Ring to curse them.

Yeah that's kinda what I thought as well:
The Oath-Breakers were cursed by Isildur after the war, when he held the Ring, IIRC, so that could have something to do with it.

The One Ring could have (most likely?) had something to do with it but I prefer to think they couldn't die properly only because of the WORLDS OF SHAME heaped upon them for betraying the forces of good, because that's just so much cooler in my head. :D But canonically it's because of Isildur's curse. I'm not sure when exactly that curse took place but I'm pretty sure it happened after the battle for Mount Doom after he had acquired the One Ring so logically his words could have carried some extra power with them because of the power of the Ring.
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bluwolfie

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #68 on: September 25, 2014, 10:15:40 pm »

If anyone cares about the actual GAME, here's some new info.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SKwosdIZGA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfHqHvjW_hU
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dennislp3

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #69 on: September 25, 2014, 10:22:53 pm »

There is lots of gameplay footage out which is pretty awesome and encouraging since most games are hid until release
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bluwolfie

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #70 on: September 26, 2014, 08:35:19 am »

There is lots of gameplay footage out which is pretty awesome and encouraging since most games are hid until release

Yeah and the Nemesis system looks pretty robust and badass to be honest, it's the main draw for me. I'm not the most hardcore fan of Tolkin's stuff but from what I've seen they tried their hardest to make the story fit the films, so to all of you hardcore fans out there give this game a fucking chance. This is NOT your typical lord of the rings video game, it's a beast all it's own. It's got a deep simulation going on behind the scenes with lots of moving parts, respect what they built and stop acting so goddamn entitled PLEASE.

At least look before you judge it.
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Sartain

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #71 on: September 26, 2014, 10:18:05 am »

I decided to preorder when one of the main devs said the nemesis system and the game's random generation was intended to simulate a GM in a roleplaying game :)
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bluwolfie

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #72 on: September 26, 2014, 11:29:28 am »

I decided to preorder when one of the main devs said the nemesis system and the game's random generation was intended to simulate a GM in a roleplaying game :)

Yeah man, it's pretty fucking awesome. One cool thing is if you don't actually decapitate a dude there's a chance he will come back all scarred and shit.. I'm going to burn EVERYONE.

And then I will kill everyone who doesn't have grey skin, so that the only orcs left are the ones with grey skin. ORCISH ETHNIC CLEANSING
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Parsely

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #73 on: September 26, 2014, 11:30:46 am »

This just looks so gosh-darn cool I can't stand it.
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bluwolfie

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #74 on: September 26, 2014, 11:47:22 am »

Indeed, we will be the grey orcish army!

Fighting.. Other Grey orcs because I killed all of the other colors!
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