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[4maskwolf]

...He's sleeping. :v

Also I quite see a notquitethere on the voting list.
But I didn't in the first place, explaining all dem questions to Webby.
..
I believe notquitethere has a charm of invisibility to be so mundane you can't see it at first glance. Or, is uncapitalized.

OH, there it is.  That's clever.

[4maskwolf]

To clarify: Some people, including myself, didn't see it at first because of the power of suggestion.  After the line about NQT being not evil, the mod proceeds to list people in a nondescript way, which we just skim without looking for NQT's name, because he was confirmed not evil.

I'm not sure if that was the intent, but it was clever regardless.

[Silthuri]

Mr. Badict, Sir: Uh... RangerCado never unvoted me... JUST sayin'. And also, why did you take the time to write the note on the board and then leave? Isn't the end of the world too important to leave in the hands of a bunch of impulsive teenagers? (No offence, guys)
Cado:

MOWE: Hm… I was hoping for something more creative in the answer department, but okay. Whats your take on the situation with the items in this game?

Well judging by the fact that some people appear to have them and others don't, I think they might be roles. They come with powers, right? So there are no definite roles for people. You have(?) to give up your role to someone you think would use it against the forces of Evil, so it requires extra thought because you could be helping Evil of you're wrong...
More shall come tonight after I get home from a nice, long, relaxing day with my boyfriend.

[Leafsnail]

I will explain again.

Firstly: What exactly is a bastard mod?  I'm sure a lot of you aren't familiar with it.  At its core, a bastard mod is a puzzle.  That often means that the scum has very unusual or nonstandard abilities, and to catch them you must work out what those abilities are.  In other words, the players must have the wrong idea about the setup until they solve the puzzle.

For example, in Bellsounder the scum was capable of endlessly reviving both themselves and everyone else.  The town had to realize this in order to win, because lynching the scum wouldn't be enough.

Or see the original Kill Webadict Now, in which the identity of webadict changed on death.  The town got lucky and won by a chance redirect, but if they hadn't then they'd need to work out the puzzle to win.

Or look at M E I N　K A M P F, where one of the true mafia members was a member of three seperate apparently mafia teams.  The "town" (who all thought they were mafia) had to realize and lynch one of their apparent teammates to win.

What's my point?  My point is that in a bastard game you should always be looking for ways that the moderator can create a strange, unique kind of mafia threat.  My point is that if someone has a suspiciously powerful position in a bastard mod (such as being part of three different mafia groups, or having the ability to revive everyone endlessly while having the rolename "Endless Witch", or being "confirmed" as town at the start of the game) then you should strongly, strongly suspect them.

In this game webadict has promised not to lie.  So, in order to create that unique kind of threat, he must selectively withhold information.  Then we will lie to ourselves through our own assumptions and biases, and thus render the game unwinnable unless we solve the riddle.  Assumptions and biases like "Not evil = town" or "meteor strikers = evil".

Enter "confirmed townie" NQT.  webadict is clearly trying to make us assume that he is town, but not actually directly stating it - in fact, if one discards the "evil = scum" assumption (an assumption that doesn't even hold in some regular mafia games), there's no reason to think that he is town at all.  Why did he do this?  The simplest explanation: he is a mafia member.  This is the bastard twist of the game.

Now, if you disagree, I would like you to provide an alternate reason why webadict would want to strongly hint that a player is town without actually saying so.  A vague answer suggesting that webadict is pulling some kind of bizarre double bluff with no hints to it isn't acceptable.  When you make a puzzle, all the elements you put in that puzzle are there for a reason.

I will make more specific responses in my next post.

[4maskwolf]

Leafsnail: The fact of the matter is that Wuba has been vague on EVERYTHING in the game.  The flavor was vague, his responses are vague, everything he has said so far is open to interpretation.  Even the "It takes three to summon the meteor" could be misleading: it could be that there were more than 3, but that there are AT LEAST three.  Another part of a bastard mod game is that the GM is deceptive, so anything he is vague on could be a red herring.  That is the problem: the mod, at least on day one, will not lead us to the answer by only being vague on the things he is lying on.  He can tell the truth, go with assumptions, but do it in a way that is vague enough for the players to doubt its veracity.  I find this logic at least as likely as your own.

In addition, making the logical assumption that Wuba is playing the red herring game, it makes it even more unlikely that ALL of your hypotheses are correct.  Your main hypothesis appears to be "The mod is lying on everything vague", and if that is not true, parts of your conclusion begin to fall apart.  While I am not as well-read in mafia as you are, I would assume it is not an uncommon practice for the bastard mods to plant red herrings to distract the players.

[HissinhWalnuts]

Watch as the only town is the guy who's been confirmed town.

[4maskwolf]

The problem, Leafsnail, is that you are only looking at the first level of deception: the outright lies or misdirections.  You aren't paying attention to the possible second level, where red herrings are planted to throw us off track.  I doubt that bastard mods are meant to be puzzled out in the first day, and Wuba is good at what he does.  I drew the conclusion you did upon first coming to understand what a bastard mod meant, but it is too simple.  Anyone who assumed that the mod was lying on everything could come to the same conclusion you did.

In all likelyhood, the mod is preying on our assumptions of a bastard mod, because many of the players know to look for things like that.  He said that he would only withhold information, but that does not mean that he will withhold ALL information.

Oh, and H.Walnuts: That would be an interesting twist, and something that I asked leafsnail to consider earlier, in a slightly different format, whereupon he told me that I was confirmed evil due to asking that.

[notquitethere]

ATTENTION CLASS

Leafsnail is acting deceitfully and everyone should be voting him. Here he makes up a theory that Wuba and Nerjin and myself could be the meteor summoners, when we know that it was three other students that summoned the meteorite:

“Well three students summoned the meteor that is gonna destr-“ Notquitethere started but was cut off when her desk sprouted a hole thanks to Dr. Nerjin’s shooting of it.

“I’m well aware.”

Even if we then think Dr Nerjin and Wuba are scum, then why isn't he encouraging us to vote for one of them instead of the one confirmed town player?

Further, and this is the really damning thing, Leafsnail seems to be under the misapprehension that Not Evil players will have been told that they were Not Evil in their role PMs:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm not Evil, so I guess so?

[...]


Toaster, Leaf: What do you two make of the Good/Not Evil thing? I think I've got the right of it, but I'd value your opinions.

I make that you obviously don't know what the town win condition is.  Your previous question to NQT makes no sense if you yourself were told that you were "not Evil" rather than good.

But don't worry, you're not alone in that respect.

1. I'm not convinced yet that NQT isn't third-party. The definition given was "not evil", which is slightly different from good. That being said, I don't think we need to worry about NQT right now, because s/he isn't one of the rock summoners.

This post makes no sense unless 4maskwolf did not receive a "not Evil" PM - that PM would have instantly cleared up the confusion he has.

Well, not evil also means neutral/good, but then Web did define evil--it also goes to reason that we can't put this 'not evil/evil' on an interval scale: It just assumed that our Class President is...not malevolent.

Same here.  There's no way someone who knows that their own alignment is "not Evil" would find it ambiguous that someone else's alignment is also "not Evil".

Erm... I don't know.  I'm not evil, Wuba said we would know if we were evil.

No he didn't.

When in fact, Wuba explicitly said that you'd only be told your alignment if you were Evil:

Aaaaand, your gender and stuff are in your roles. If you're not told you're Evil, you're not Evil.

If the meteorite wasn't summoned by evil doers, would the Evil players that haven't summoned a meteorite please speak up?

do you think genders play a good difference?
Also: I take it that your vote towards me...is because I called you male, right?

I voted you before because you weren't paying attention. I'm now voting Leafsnail as he's paying even less attention and making more noise about it

*sits at back of class, pouts, says yes ma'am in a sad tone* (...Are you telepathic?! I always am at the front in any class I'm in <_<)

And yes, I'm telepathic: that's why I'm so good at this game.

you tell me my 'essential' playstyle sucks? I'll take it on! Because that really hurt me that you weren't open to discussion about how to improve each others' playstyles.

Keep in mind that in Glyph's last game I was playing a bad guy and I was absolutely right that, at the time, your focus on Darkstar was completely wrongfooted. I don't think you're so bad: I think most people in these parts are lousy at hunting scum.

Scum are rarely lynched Day 1: anything you think we could do to maximise that chance?

Pullin' out of context: Does the first statement have any relation to the lynch?

What do you think I was trying to say Tiruin? Could it possibly be what I actually said? That scum are rarely lynched on Day 1. It is Day 1 and so of course I am worried about scum not being lynched.

NQT: What class does Mr. Web teach?

I don't know why you expect me to have privileged knowledge. But Wuba said he taught History, didn't he?

Addendum; NQT: In your seemingly infallible Not Evil notion, on that single prod to us four-I believe you wish for us to see something you are, right?
What did you see in the other nine that we fail to address?

I just want you guys to stop posting dross and make sure you're talking to everyone in the game.   

Ranger, explain your unnerving hunch.

Walnuts, editing your posts is against the rules: see the OP.

Watch as the only town is the guy who's been confirmed town.

Are you saying that your role PM says your not town?

Wolf

NQT: as the only one currently confirmed now meteor summoner, what are your reads on the other active players?

Leafsnail is the most scummy for the reasons outlined above. I'll form my fuller reads on everyone closer to the end of Day 1, on Tuesday.

Do you think Cheese is living up to his reputation for good scum hunting?

Darkstar

One more thing: How much do you think NQT can influence the vote? It's likely that his vote counts more than ours.

Likely? Where are you getting these probabilities from? I can assure you that this isn't the case.

Leafsnail

Now, if you disagree, I would like you to provide an alternate reason why webadict would want to strongly hint that a player is town without actually saying so.  A vague answer suggesting that webadict is pulling some kind of bizarre double bluff with no hints to it isn't acceptable.  When you make a puzzle, all the elements you put in that puzzle are there for a reason.

Simple answer: everyone has abilities on this game and my ability is that I'm confirmed town, possibly to balance out an otherwise scum-sided or third-party-saturated game.

[4maskwolf]

Makeinu: In your mind, do definitely good and confirmed not evil mean not scum, or that they are guaranteed town? Why?

[4maskwolf]

ATTENTION CLASS

Leafsnail is acting deceitfully and everyone should be voting him. Here he makes up a theory that Wuba and Nerjin and myself could be the meteor summoners, when we know that it was three other students that summoned the meteorite:

“Well three students summoned the meteor that is gonna destr-“ Notquitethere started but was cut off when her desk sprouted a hole thanks to Dr. Nerjin’s shooting of it.

“I’m well aware.”

Even if we then think Dr Nerjin and Wuba are scum, then why isn't he encouraging us to vote for one of them instead of the one confirmed town player?

Further, and this is the really damning thing, Leafsnail seems to be under the misapprehension that Not Evil players will have been told that they were Not Evil in their role PMs:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm not Evil, so I guess so?

[...]


Toaster, Leaf: What do you two make of the Good/Not Evil thing? I think I've got the right of it, but I'd value your opinions.

I make that you obviously don't know what the town win condition is.  Your previous question to NQT makes no sense if you yourself were told that you were "not Evil" rather than good.

But don't worry, you're not alone in that respect.

1. I'm not convinced yet that NQT isn't third-party. The definition given was "not evil", which is slightly different from good. That being said, I don't think we need to worry about NQT right now, because s/he isn't one of the rock summoners.

This post makes no sense unless 4maskwolf did not receive a "not Evil" PM - that PM would have instantly cleared up the confusion he has.

Well, not evil also means neutral/good, but then Web did define evil--it also goes to reason that we can't put this 'not evil/evil' on an interval scale: It just assumed that our Class President is...not malevolent.

Same here.  There's no way someone who knows that their own alignment is "not Evil" would find it ambiguous that someone else's alignment is also "not Evil".

Erm... I don't know.  I'm not evil, Wuba said we would know if we were evil.

No he didn't.

When in fact, Wuba explicitly said that you'd only be told your alignment if you were Evil:

Aaaaand, your gender and stuff are in your roles. If you're not told you're Evil, you're not Evil.

If the meteorite wasn't summoned by evil doers, would the Evil players that haven't summoned a meteorite please speak up?

do you think genders play a good difference?
Also: I take it that your vote towards me...is because I called you male, right?

I voted you before because you weren't paying attention. I'm now voting Leafsnail as he's paying even less attention and making more noise about it

*sits at back of class, pouts, says yes ma'am in a sad tone* (...Are you telepathic?! I always am at the front in any class I'm in <_<)

And yes, I'm telepathic: that's why I'm so good at this game.

you tell me my 'essential' playstyle sucks? I'll take it on! Because that really hurt me that you weren't open to discussion about how to improve each others' playstyles.

Keep in mind that in Glyph's last game I was playing a bad guy and I was absolutely right that, at the time, your focus on Darkstar was completely wrongfooted. I don't think you're so bad: I think most people in these parts are lousy at hunting scum.

Scum are rarely lynched Day 1: anything you think we could do to maximise that chance?

Pullin' out of context: Does the first statement have any relation to the lynch?

What do you think I was trying to say Tiruin? Could it possibly be what I actually said? That scum are rarely lynched on Day 1. It is Day 1 and so of course I am worried about scum not being lynched.

NQT: What class does Mr. Web teach?

I don't know why you expect me to have privileged knowledge. But Wuba said he taught History, didn't he?

Addendum; NQT: In your seemingly infallible Not Evil notion, on that single prod to us four-I believe you wish for us to see something you are, right?
What did you see in the other nine that we fail to address?

I just want you guys to stop posting dross and make sure you're talking to everyone in the game.   

Ranger, explain your unnerving hunch.

Walnuts, editing your posts is against the rules: see the OP.

Watch as the only town is the guy who's been confirmed town.

Are you saying that your role PM says your not town?

Wolf

NQT: as the only one currently confirmed now meteor summoner, what are your reads on the other active players?

Leafsnail is the most scummy for the reasons outlined above. I'll form my fuller reads on everyone closer to the end of Day 1, on Tuesday.

Do you think Cheese is living up to his reputation for good scum hunting?

Darkstar

One more thing: How much do you think NQT can influence the vote? It's likely that his vote counts more than ours.

Likely? Where are you getting these probabilities from? I can assure you that this isn't the case.

Leafsnail

Now, if you disagree, I would like you to provide an alternate reason why webadict would want to strongly hint that a player is town without actually saying so.  A vague answer suggesting that webadict is pulling some kind of bizarre double bluff with no hints to it isn't acceptable.  When you make a puzzle, all the elements you put in that puzzle are there for a reason.

Simple answer: everyone has abilities on this game and my ability is that I'm confirmed town, possibly to balance out an otherwise scum-sided or third-party-saturated game.

A couple of clarifications, NQT:
1. Wuba did not say that we would get not evil PM's, he said that if we were evil he said so in the PM's to us.  THAT is why I said what I did.  You also seem to be pushing rather hard the idea that not evil means guaranteed town, and I'm not convinced yet.  Time will tell whether my hunch is correct or not.

2. People are arriving at the probabilities through the idea that the game is a bastard mod game in which we don't know what the roles are or are capable of.

H.Walnuts: Sorry if this sounds sharp, but either attempt to play the game or let somebody else come in and wait to join the next BM.  The problem is that you  aren't using what we told you about how to play at all.  While we all want new players to play with us, that is what the beginner mafia is for.  I know I'm a bit of a hypocrit in saying all of this, but I've been doing my best, in my own noobish way, to scumhunt and puzzlesolve.  You have asked one scumhuntesque question, after prompting from MastahCheese, and have mostly questioned what different parts of the game mean or interjected comments.

That being said, I was probably too harsh in saying that.  I do want you to play mafia, just perhaps not this game: if you can't figure it out, join the next BM.

[HissinhWalnuts]

4maskwolf:Everything I've done has resulted in a person insulting me, I'm trying to be careful and not cause even more insultation.

[4maskwolf]

4maskwolf:Everything I've done has resulted in a person insulting me, I'm trying to be careful and not cause even more insultation.

We're not trying to insult you, we are trying to get all the players actively playing.  I know it may seem like insults, but that is not our intent.

[notquitethere]

Wolf

A couple of clarifications, NQT:
1. Wuba did not say that we would get not evil PM's, he said that if we were evil he said so in the PM's to us.  THAT is why I said what I did.

Did you even read what I wrote? That's exactly what I just said:

Wuba explicitly said that you'd only be told your alignment if you were Evil

Did your PM tell you anything about an alignment?

  You also seem to be pushing rather hard the idea that not evil means guaranteed town, and I'm not convinced yet.  Time will tell whether my hunch is correct or not.

Everyone knows that I'm Not Evil, and I can assure you that my role PM also explicitly states that I'm town. The two are the same thing. Now, I understand that not everyone will have been told that they were town, but that's fine because Wuba said in the first game post that if they weren't told otherwise, they're Not Evil. (I'm a special case here because my role power is being confirmed-town.)

2. People are arriving at the probabilities through the idea that the game is a bastard mod game in which we don't know what the roles are or are capable of.

OK. There are a lot mysteries. But the mysteries aren't going to go away if we let people just make stuff up. In my previous post I point to two concrete facts that Leafsnail has wilfully got wrong.

Also, you didn't reply to my question about Cheese, and could you please trim down your quotes, it's unwieldy having to scroll through a page of repeated text.


HissinhWalnuts please respond to the question I just asked you.

[HissinhWalnuts]

Telling me not to do something isn't a question a I know how to answer...

[notquitethere]

But asking a question immediately afterwards is:

Watch as the only town is the guy who's been confirmed town.

Are you saying that your role PM says you're not town?

So to repeat: does your role PM say that you are not town?