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[Xazo-Tak]

Well none of my immediate family are extremely religious at all,  weddings and christenings are the main reasons we end up in church.

And here comes the old miracles flouting logic and science aguments.

Same here, neither of my parents are gnostic.
Although my father had the arrogance to construct his own belief out of other beliefs when his mental attributes give a ludicrous debuff to philosophy.

[Catsup]

mankind is a slave to human nature, our own thought, our capitalistic society, our own values and opinions. We are a slave to anything beyond our own control, which is just about, everything.

But it doesnt have to be that way, be anything you you want to be. If going to church was an important part of your social life and was uplifting in that way for you, then keep going to it. No one is forcing you to become anything you dont want to, no one is forcing you to believe in anything you dont want to. And remember, you can only become lost, if you are looking for somewhere to go.

It's like it's hard coded to my mind. I know deep down in my soul that this ridiculousness doesn't exist, but in my conscious I still feel that invalid belief. Help me.

Realize that god is a human construction, it is whatever you want it to be, and it will exist or not depending on what you believe. You seem conflicted about whether it does or does not exist, but why care so much? Believing, not believing, or being unsure, its all fine, be the you that you are comfortable being.

[Dutchling]

Heh, I know that problem.

I stopped believing years before I stopped "knowing" God existed.

[ChairmanPoo]

Mankind ill needs a savior such as you!

[T-Mick]

"Christianity" is inherently unfulfilling. You can plumb its very depths for your entire life, but you won't find the whole truth. Why is this? Because Christ didn't found a mess of vaguely related sects. He only founded one. The Catholic Church holds all the truths you will need. Don't waste your time with Protestants, who latch onto one aspect of the Catholic Church at the expense of everything else. They're cheap imitations. Before you abandon all hope, do me a favor. Read Orthodoxy. Chesterton wasn't even Catholic when he wrote it, but he was sane, and he saw the truth for what it was.

Dominus vobiscum!

[ChairmanPoo]

(...or else!)

[T-Mick]

Our next scheduled heretic burning is in two weeks. We'll need some appropriate, heretical books for fuel, so feel free to donate. Bring your own beer. 

[Lidku]

Lol, love the supportive feed back.

[ChairmanPoo]

Our next scheduled heretic burning is in two weeks. We'll need some appropriate, heretical books for fuel, so feel free to donate. Bring your own beer. 

Ooh! Oooh!

[Steeled]

If you are having a crisis of faith you can talk to a priest, or you can turn to the confessional. Priests aren't allowed to divulge what they hear during confessions. I have less knowledge about other branches of christianity, but I'm quite sure they have something similar.

[freeformschooler]

If you don't believe in God, you can at least believe in what He represents: a noble ideal, the "opposite" of Human nature. Where Humans are selfish, vengeful, and ignorant, God is altruistic, forgiving, and wise. More pessimistically, God is a noble lie necessary for social compromise, altered in the direction of long-standing societal prejudices.

"Christianity" is inherently unfulfilling. You can plumb its very depths for your entire life, but you won't find the whole truth. Why is this? Because Christ didn't found a mess of vaguely related sects. He only founded one. The Catholic Church holds all the truths you will need. Don't waste your time with Protestants, who latch onto one aspect of the Catholic Church at the expense of everything else. They're cheap imitations. Before you abandon all hope, do me a favor. Read Orthodoxy. Chesterton wasn't even Catholic when he wrote it, but he was sane, and he saw the truth for what it was.

Dominus vobiscum!

Even if you don't buy what this guy's selling, read Orthodoxy anyway. It's a great book, and Chesterton is very funny.

[mastahcheese]

If it helps, I propose looking at the teachings of Buddhism, while probably not the beeest thing if you are intent to not be associated with any religion, however it is a good thing to learn about even if you aren't intent on following it to a T.

I have to agree with this, even if solely because, in my viewpoint, most religions preach "non-violence" and yet they forged the Crusades from them. I haven't seen this with Buddhism. Although I could be wrong.

If you are having a crisis of faith you can talk to a priest, or you can turn to the confessional. Priests aren't allowed to divulge what they hear during confessions. I have less knowledge about other branches of christianity, but I'm quite sure they have something similar.

This is pretty good advice. I've never been to one myself, though. I know the Catholics have them.

If you don't believe in God, you can at least believe in what He represents: a noble ideal, the "opposite" of Human nature. Where Humans are selfish, vengeful, and ignorant, God is altruistic, forgiving, and wise. More pessimistically, God is a noble lie necessary for social compromise, altered in the direction of long-standing societal prejudices.

I'll +1 this. At least the concept is pretty good, if you don't find much else very good with it.

In my own, personal beliefs, I don't think that "salvation" or "the whole truth" is something that can be taught in a book. I think it's something that you have to figure out on your own, and that will take time. I think Buddhists actually believe that we reincarnate so that we have the time to figure it out, and that one life isn't enough time to sort it all out in. I could be totally wrong on that, though, so don't take my word for it.

[MorleyDev]

See, the whole "inherently selfish" thing is...kinda wrong. Genetics are inherently selfish, but that doesn't make humans selfish. You don't need to breed for your genes to pass on. Relatives, for example, carry our genes. But we're also genetically programmed to protect our tribe, those we live near and with, and since modern society has widened the concept of tribe (more people around) but we still have that inherent selfish altruism of protecting the tribe it means works like charity are things humans can feel compelled towards by the right juxtaposition of nature and nurture.

I actually had a debate with a friend awhile ago about whether religion was a force for good or bad in the world. She's a person who relatively recently lost her faith and began to identify as atheist, whilst I've been building my atheistic philosophy for awhile now. The debate ended with the conclusion that she felt the charities and good done in it's name outweighed the bad, whilst I felt those charities and good would still be done, that new non-religious charities would be founded, and without the excuse of the dogma of church and religion limiting them they would actually do more good.

And all the bad of religion would be diluted and lessened by not being so organised in it's hate and ignorance (organised hate and ignorance being the bad that can come from religion). Of course the bad would still happen, people are people after all, I just suspect the damage would be lessened.

[mastahcheese]

At the very least, they would have a harder time organizing all of the ignorant haters into a large enough mass to be capable of doing large amounts of harm.

[Moogie]

If you don't believe in God, you can at least believe in what He represents: a noble ideal, the "opposite" of Human nature. Where Humans are selfish, vengeful, and ignorant, God is altruistic, forgiving, and wise.

I see this as a view only the once-religious could ever hold, and it is perhaps the best thing a deconverted Christian could aspire to believe.


As someone who has never been religious, however, I know that humans are selfish, altruistic, vengeful, forgiving, ignorant AND wise. There is no opposite of us. All of these notions of "good" and "evil" are inherantly human to begin with.