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Author Topic: Is mankind slaves to the tyranny of religion  (Read 6734 times)

Lidku

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Is mankind slaves to the tyranny of religion
« on: January 18, 2014, 12:16:43 pm »

I don't know anymore. I just seem lost nowadays. I stopped going to church, but ever since I've felt morbid. Becoming an Atheist wasn't easy, but now I feel more free, but still chained to the brainwashing of christianity. It's like it's hard coded to my mind. I know deep down in my soul that this ridiculousness doesn't exist, but in my conscious I still feel that invalid belief. Help me.
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SHAD0Wdump

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Re: Is mankind slaves to the tyranny of religion
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2014, 12:20:37 pm »

What convinces you it is brainwashing? Can you explain why you seem to be holding onto it? What arguments do you have for it and against it basically.
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Lidku

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Re: Is mankind slaves to the tyranny of religion
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2014, 12:31:49 pm »

I guess I hold on to it because of my family. Their all extremely religious and I couldn't imagine telling my opinions to my mom. She would probably freak out or something and take all my video games! Especially Dwarf Fortress, it was just even harder explaining the title to my mom.

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SHAD0Wdump

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Re: Is mankind slaves to the tyranny of religion
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2014, 12:39:19 pm »

Alright... Though why do you say it is invalid?
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Lidku

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Re: Is mankind slaves to the tyranny of religion
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2014, 12:51:49 pm »

DUDE, WHAT DO THINK!

1.A person walking on water.

2.Talking animals!

3.Noah's ark, which he must have traveled milions of miles just to get every single living animal organism and insectoid!

4.Predators and prey living in the same living space.

5. Animals taken out their habitat

The list just goe's on and on! Can anybody complete this list! I tripple Bay12 dare you to anyone willing to do it!
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Funk

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Re: Is mankind slaves to the tyranny of religion
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2014, 01:02:16 pm »

Well none of my immediate family are extremely religious at all,  weddings and christenings are the main reasons we end up in church.

And here comes the old miracles flouting logic and science aguments.
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SHAD0Wdump

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Re: Is mankind slaves to the tyranny of religion
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2014, 01:24:42 pm »

Now before I start with this, some things need to be taken into account.

 For much of what is said in the bible to be believed, one must take stock in the idea of an all powerful Creator who made the very existence we perceive, for that to work one must give up the concept that only what we can perceive can exist. Do note that for science to be taken in a healthy way you'll need that second assumption as well if you really want to discover anything exciting at all.

 If you have given up on the concept that 'it doesn't exist because you can't see it', then if you wish to believe in Christianity it very much helps to focus on Jesus, which is the center of the religion. There's compelling arguments for and against him and whether you find one side more persuasive or not depends on where you look, so I insist very careful research.

 As much as you are afraid of your parents over this matter, hopefully you should be able to come to them and ask them innocent questions that won't raise suspicion that may help you get answers from the Christian viewpoint on this. I'll try to answer the questions you have presented from that side myself without 'going off the deep end'.
1.A person walking on water.
Well that's Jesus(And peter by extension), he is supposed to have been given the authority and power of God, who assuming he made all reality, is it really hard to believe he could make a person walk on water? He could just bend the rules effectively.

2.Talking animals!
I presume you are talking about the donkey(Or ass), Well... Again you'd really have to assume God just bent the rules for this one, and for me personally? I think this suggests God has a sense of humor if anything.
 The other thing though to take into account is this one is very, very old. There are arguments that biblical scriptures have been reliably maintained through time without alteration, but those arguments I find so far are usually attributed to the New Testament, for me, this could easily be a huge myth that weaseled its way into the bible.

3.Noah's ark, which he must have traveled milions of miles just to get every single living animal organism and insectoid!
Except it is stated that God brought the animals to him.

4.Predators and prey living in the same living space.
This is a concept of the next life, after Jesus has returned. Once that happens all evil would be defeated and such things as killing for sustenance wouldn't be required as creation could live with God, who could provide for such needs.

5. Animals taken out their habitat
Now I'm not perfectly sure what you are referring to with this one, but based off of these words alone I do not see anything to contest. After all, we have cats and dogs(And many other creatures) as pets, are they living in a natural habitat?

The list just goe's on and on! Can anybody complete this list! I tripple Bay12 dare you to anyone willing to do it!
Indeed the list does go on and on, religion is a constant source of questions since you are debating reality itself. I suppose in a sense Atheism can be seen as an escape from these questions, but whether that is really healthy or not is up to the person involved to decide. I'd personally say ignorance of reality isn't really healthy just as skipping school isn't healthy, people should strive to learn, it is a large part of what makes us human.
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Jelle

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Re: Is mankind slaves to the tyranny of religion
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2014, 01:47:33 pm »

If it's family pressure that's gnawing on you for your choice, there's really not much you can do. Your options as I see it:

- Pretend you believe so you don't have to deal with it
- Try and get them to accept your choice
- Stop caring that much what others think about your life choices
- Buckle to the pressure and just go along with what they want you to believe

Also respect for having the guts to think for yourself, I can't imagine it's easy when your family is so adverse to it.

P.S. Can we refrain from discussing why to chose not to believe? I think we all know how that will end.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 01:51:16 pm by Jelle »
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SHAD0Wdump

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Re: Is mankind slaves to the tyranny of religion
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2014, 01:51:51 pm »

P.S. Can we refrain from discussing why to chose not to believe? I think we all know how that will end.
Admittedly this does start religious discussion which can often be very hostile. But I mostly wanted to see exactly what it was that was bothering him about it so I could try and answer. So sorry in advance if this goes sour, I really hope it doesn't.
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sackhead

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Re: Is mankind slaves to the tyranny of religion
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2014, 03:18:25 pm »

from a Christan atheism viewpoint I think Jesus walking on water may be a metaphor about doubt
Quote
Matthew 14:22-33

22 Immediately Jesus made the disciples get into the boat and go on ahead of him to the other side, while he dismissed the crowd. 23 After he had dismissed them, he went up on a mountainside by himself to pray. Later that night, he was there alone, 24 and the boat was already a considerable distance from land, buffeted by the waves because the wind was against it.

25 Shortly before dawn Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake. 26 When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. “It’s a ghost,” they said, and cried out in fear.

27 But Jesus immediately said to them: “Take courage! It is I. Don’t be afraid.”

28 “Lord, if it’s you,” Peter replied, “tell me to come to you on the water.”

29 “Come,” he said.

Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30 But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!”

31 Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. “You of little faith,” he said, “why did you doubt?”

32 And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down.
33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

in my opinion he is saying if you doubt in you ability to do something (like Peter did) you will be unable to do it. or if you believe something is impossible
or from a religious metaphor it may be trying to say "If you doubt in the lord you will be unable to walk with him (possibly in heaven) "
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Knight of Fools

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Re: Is mankind slaves to the tyranny of religion
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2014, 04:33:19 pm »

What you choose to believe comes down to you, and you alone. I've been going through my own personal trial of faith, and though my circumstances are much different than yours I can say it's not an easy thing to go through. I can say, however, that questioning your beliefs, whether you're a believer or a skeptic, is healthy and everyone should keep an open mind about both sides. It's important to have an accepting attitude of beliefs that directly oppose yours, or you're only going to make things worse for yourself and for your family.

So there's a few things you need to do.


1) Try to understand the "other side".

Judging from your post title you have a very adversarial opinion of religion, and that's just as dangerous as a religious guy thinking atheism will destroy the world and hating all atheists. You need to accept that people will have beliefs that are opposed to yours, and that this doesn't make them dumb, gullible, or whatever. You should make every effort to understand where the other party is coming from, and admit that it makes sense from a certain perspective, even if it's not for you.

Understanding and accepting dogma that's opposed to your own beliefs requires a great deal of empathy and effort. Don't think that you're going to suddenly be converted back to something you don't really believe in just because you're opening your mind to other possibilities. Heck, lots of staunch atheists have read the bible and lots of faithful Christians have read the God Delusion and I've yet to hear a conversion story from either side in those circumstances.

Understand that actions and beliefs often don't have a lot of bearing on each other. There's lots of dumb Christians just as much there's lots of dumb atheists. Everyone's capable of making a bad decision, no matter what they believe. Avoid the temptation to think that someone does something purely because they believe a certain thing.

Understanding why people feel the way they do about beliefs that conflict with their own is very important in cases like yours. If you continue feeling like your parents are the enemy because they hold a different view than yours you're going to have a bad time. You should be open and understanding of their beliefs as you want them to be of yours. You can't possibly expect them to accept your decisions if you don't accept theirs. It's not fair, and it's certainly not going to earn you any points in the "Please don't punish me because I'm thinking about becoming an atheist" category.

Which brings us to point two.


2) Open up to your parents.

As in, sit down and tell them that you love them and respect them and all that jazz, but you're having a bit of a conflict of faith right now. It's probably not a good idea to jump up one day and say, "Mom, dad, I'm an atheist!" Start with delicate questions, like "How do we know that God exists", "If I'm not 100% sure God exists will I go to hell", stuff like that. Best not to mention atheism directly until later, maybe much later.

Depending on your parents, it's going to be a delicate dance. If they ask if they can help, tell them you need space and time and don't want to feel like you've been forced to a decision. Promise to pray and read the bible, and actually follow through with it if you're comfortable. Never hurts to try. Exactly how much you tell them and what you promise to do is up to you to decide, just remember that these people probably thought that their child was a faithful teenager not five minutes ago. They may be sensitive about having their child question what they've been teaching him. Do your best to make them think you're going to do all you can to make the right choice.

Do not. DO NOT. Do not be angry or confrontational. There's no way that you're going to convince them that God isn't real. You may be tempted to hurt them in order to make your point if things turn sour.

Don't do that. It would be incredibly dumb. It's not a competition. Your parents love you and want the best for you, but if they think this crisis of faith is going to turn you against them, you're definitely going to lose points in the "Please don't punish me because I'm thinking about becoming an atheist" category.

Be open, understanding, and loving, but be honest. It probably won't be easy. Stamp out that anger and self-righteousness and put on a humble face. These people are your parents and deserve your respect, and if you give them that love and respect, and show it in the best way possible, they're a lot more likely to respect you. Try to take any advice they give you sincerely, even if you don't find it palpable.

Act like an adult, be treated like an adult.

If things turn sour and they react badly, we can talk about that then since from there it's mostly damage control on your own feelings. Which brings us to the final point.


3) Come to terms with your beliefs (or with what you don't believe).

With the those "understand the other side" and "talk with your parents" things out of the way it's time to sit down and figure out, sincerely, how you feel. If the first two points were hard, this is going to be the hardest. You're questioning beliefs that you've been taught your entire life. How you feel about and see existence itself is on the line.

Take a philosophy class, if your high school offers it. If not, just read about it online. There's been a lot of thinking done about the nature of existence already, so lots of dudes have done the heavy lifting for you. Read about different religions, read about atheism. Figure out how you feel. Keep an open mind. Keep on trying to accept others for who they are, no matter what they believe is out there.

Reaching a decision and coming to terms with yourself will probably take years. Even if you never figure things out for sure, all the research and thinking you've done will do you some good. You'll come out on top if you do things right, no matter what you decide to believe.

Good luck.
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Baffler

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Re: Is mankind slaves to the tyranny of religion
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2014, 04:34:25 pm »

It is VERY difficult to bring about deliberate change to your beliefs on any subject. Only a solid chunk of time can bring about shift like that. If you really want to try though, I recommend starting with some apologetics and going from there. Disagreeing with them is a lot easier than disagreeing with yourself, at least.
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Lidku

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Re: Is mankind slaves to the tyranny of religion
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2014, 04:43:59 pm »

Thanks guys, these comments REALY helped me.Thanks again for your Bay12 Support!
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Iceblaster

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Re: Is mankind slaves to the tyranny of religion
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2014, 04:49:01 pm »

If it helps, I propose looking at the teachings of Buddhism, while probably not the beeest thing if you are intent to not be associated with any religion, however it is a good thing to learn about even if you aren't intent on following it to a T.

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Re: Is mankind slaves to the tyranny of religion
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2014, 04:54:09 pm »

Your question seems to be why you still "feel" Christian despite consciously being an atheist. You can ignore my response if I've misinterpreted this. Anyway, it's a common problem for former Christians, but it usually lessens as time passes. You're feeling this way because you're going against the emotional architecture you've built up over your life, and while the response from your emotional mind is irrational it is still real. You sound like a recent deconversion, and if that's the case, a large help is going to be time: your emotional and logical thoughts are not totally synched and can come to different conclusions simultaneously. Make no mistake, truly leaving a religion is not a simple task, and you're fortunate that you've tried to find out what you really believe while still young. Stick with it, and try to focus on what you actually know while waiting for your emotional state to catch up. Eventually you'll find your identity and the situation will improve.

As for your parents, I'm going to take a hardline against the other answers here and advise you to tell them nothing while you're still dependent on them if they're both religious and willing to punish you for not following their beliefs. Dependent atheists have found themselves abused and abandoned in such situations, and even if your parents love you they may be willing to go to extremes because the ends justify the means (remember, they believe that no matter what they do to you now, they will literally have eternity to reconcile as long as you remain a Christian until you die).
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