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Author Topic: So OpenX-Com...  (Read 242046 times)

Iduno

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Re: So OpenX-Com...
« Reply #1440 on: April 18, 2020, 09:35:17 am »

Sure, shotguns are great against unarmored targets, but their damage output drops quickly with the amount of armor the target has. That being said, if the shotgun ammo degrades armor (Chem, Uranium, Plasma), the shotgun is great at destroying armor. Also, shotguns destroy shields, as shields take effect before armor.

Shotguns are only bad mid-game then? I can see that.
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Rince Wind

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Re: So OpenX-Com...
« Reply #1441 on: April 18, 2020, 09:42:22 am »

If you use AP or HEAT ammo the damage is pretty good for the weight of the gun. You only get one projectile, but you keep the easy aiming.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: So OpenX-Com...
« Reply #1442 on: April 18, 2020, 10:54:46 am »

Actually what *are* good early-midgame options for going against armor? I’ve found my “give everyone heavy shotguns and pray until you get to CAWS” tends to not be a good strategy.

Sidenote I hate the guild stapler. All of durathread completely locked until you get a stapler. Wanted a workshop but don’t have the stapler? Too bad.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

Robsoie

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Re: So OpenX-Com...
« Reply #1443 on: April 18, 2020, 11:08:35 am »

throwing a couple of grenades at far away armored enemies early game can do very good results, those osiron guys or reaper cavalry really hate grenades .
Warehouse wars mission should get you a guild stapler in the loot.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2020, 11:10:09 am by Robsoie »
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Mathel

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Re: So OpenX-Com...
« Reply #1444 on: April 18, 2020, 11:12:59 am »

Actually what *are* good early-midgame options for going against armor? I’ve found my “give everyone heavy shotguns and pray until you get to CAWS” tends to not be a good strategy.

Sidenote I hate the guild stapler. All of durathread completely locked until you get a stapler. Wanted a workshop but don’t have the stapler? Too bad.

Lasers (ignore 33% armor, should be able to plunder plenty of them), chem ammo/grenades (degrades armor), melee (powerful enough to kill armored people). A strong gal with a mace can crack a Marsec Bodyguard like a nut.
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Robsoie

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Re: So OpenX-Com...
« Reply #1445 on: April 18, 2020, 11:20:28 am »

I wouldn't call laser an early game weapon in xpiratez.
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Iduno

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Re: So OpenX-Com...
« Reply #1446 on: April 18, 2020, 12:49:57 pm »

Actually what *are* good early-midgame options for going against armor? I’ve found my “give everyone heavy shotguns and pray until you get to CAWS” tends to not be a good strategy.

Electrical weapons are good against armor, or just anything that hits real hard. Bats and some sort of electrical weapon should be available very early game. Also, molotovs are good against most early-game enemies.


throwing a couple of grenades at far away armored enemies early game can do very good results, those osiron guys or reaper cavalry really hate grenades .
Warehouse wars mission should get you a guild stapler in the loot.

Or molotovs. Reapers can't handle fire, only partly because they're 4-tile enemies. If you move fast enough, you can get them all to panic and get them as captures. Most likely, half will burn to death.
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Dostoevsky

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Re: So OpenX-Com...
« Reply #1447 on: April 18, 2020, 01:21:52 pm »

Actually what *are* good early-midgame options for going against armor? I’ve found my “give everyone heavy shotguns and pray until you get to CAWS” tends to not be a good strategy.

Melee is probably the simplest/best, honestly. Definitely chancy, but using movement carefully to close the distance and then clobbering with a spiked mace or something similar works.

I also found a decent amount of success keeping a Rotogun specialist around. It's pretty crummy on its own - even saying it's "not very effective against heavy armor" - but the ammunition strips a bit of armor on every hit. And it fires 15-round salvos.

Assault Cannon is another specialist weapon that can be useful - high damage and the basic cannonball strips a sizable chunk of armor on a hit. That one is just less reliable than the Rotogun for steady armorstripping.

Iduno's also right about molotovs and other grenade options. If I recall one of the recent(ish) patches nerfed molotovs, but they're still pretty useful.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2020, 05:35:06 pm by Dostoevsky »
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Iduno

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Re: So OpenX-Com...
« Reply #1448 on: April 18, 2020, 01:29:14 pm »

Iduno's also right about molotovs and other grenade options. If I recall one of the recent(ish) patches nerfed molotovs, but they're still pretty useful.

Oh yeah. I was on the Discord when Dioxine made that decision. There was an argument about weapons used to kill tanks (molotovs have done that a few times) being effective against people, let alone tanks. The nerf still happened, but lesser because even Dio couldn't present a confident argument against that.
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Rince Wind

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Re: So OpenX-Com...
« Reply #1449 on: April 18, 2020, 01:32:46 pm »

Melee is the answer to almost everything (tanks and their improvements have very good cutting resistance though).

Then it depends on what armor. The regular body armor from osiron and so on can be dealt with with most moderatly powered weapons. You might need a couple shots because most guns do between 0 and 200% of the listed damage. The confederate eagle, assault rifles and weapons of similar power work.
Throwing weapons can do a lot of damage. Not much can survive a javelin thrown by a decently strong and skilled gal. Which is why canny gals are so scary. Their camo alone would just be annoying.
Blackpowder bombs are strong enough as well.

I never really had a problem with guys like this, bodyguards on the other hand ... melee is the best choice for a while.
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Puzzlemaker

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Re: So OpenX-Com...
« Reply #1450 on: April 18, 2020, 01:52:55 pm »

Yeah, I found shotguns stopped being so awesome once I hit people with armor.  The problem is to make melee really work, you have to have strong gals.  New recruits just don't have what it takes.  I need to train up my new recruits more.

I am also save scumming a LOT.  I should stop, but I am still learning and making tons of mistakes so I feel like it's okay.

I need to look at the research tree more, it's very random what you have to research sometimes (Wrench is one of the required researches that you need for workshop). 
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Iduno

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Re: So OpenX-Com...
« Reply #1451 on: April 18, 2020, 01:56:33 pm »

Yeah, I found shotguns stopped being so awesome once I hit people with armor.  The problem is to make melee really work, you have to have strong gals.  New recruits just don't have what it takes.  I need to train up my new recruits more.

I am also save scumming a LOT.  I should stop, but I am still learning and making tons of mistakes so I feel like it's okay.

I need to look at the research tree more, it's very random what you have to research sometimes (Wrench is one of the required researches that you need for workshop).

Yeah, the research tree is...all over the place. Capturing and researching everyone helps (but also check to make sure you have more stuff to learn from them). Shotguns (or automatic weapons like a chaingun) will start seeming like a good idea again once enemies start having shields. Then, about a year later, you'll be able to make your own shields because you need to research 400 different things to get there.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: So OpenX-Com...
« Reply #1452 on: April 18, 2020, 02:34:26 pm »

Yeah, the workshop is a good example of the weird research tree. Because again. The Guild Stapler.

A seemingly inconsequential weapon only held by one type (that I know of) of enemy in a single faction that so far has only sometimes appeared in Warehouse Wars. That's required to do anything with Durathread. And therefore required for a lot of essential armor tech, as well as the Workshop which itself is required for a lot of techs.
Why!! Whyyy!!!
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

sambojin

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Re: So OpenX-Com...
« Reply #1453 on: April 18, 2020, 06:02:18 pm »

Shotguns are nice, as mentioned, early on. For most anti-armour weapons, just look at the "pirate'y" line of weapons for all your early game needs. They're a little bit inaccurate, you'll definitely get better guns, but they're all amazing close ranged weapons. You might have a bit of difficulty finding ammo at the beginning, but as soon as you can make it, it's very fast and cheap to do so. They'll definitely get you through to mid-game, where your options open up dramatically (including other types of ammo for these guns, if you do decide to keep them around).

Pirate'y line is:
Assault Cannons: great early game long-distance grenade launcher. Normal cannon balls are OK for anti-armour with 80 damage and arcing shots, 60 damage HE balls are good for anything else, and are often good against medium armour as well. Pyro balls aren't bad either.  Gets lots of types of ammo later on. The defining factor of whether you can take on harder missions early on is whether you've got strong gals, an assault cannon or two, and the HE ammo for them. Note: you can conga-line a single cannon with multiple gals if you have to. That initial cannon is a godsend. Once you realize that you're getting 1-4 kills/stuns every map with that gal, and your brain overcomes the "but I could only shoot once a turn" bit of them, you'll realize how good they are. HE rounds are waayyyy more accurate than their stats suggest. 

Blunderbuss: it's a very big, very close-ranged shotgun. 6 pelletx25 damage normal shells alleviates lots of problems with light-med armour. Also gets 40 damage HE shells later on. A four barreled auto-shot can and will mulch things that shotguns probably shouldn't be able to, or strip tank shields like nothing else. If you could get into melee and take 2-4 swings, then you can probably single/auto fire a blunderbuss from 4-6 squares away as well, with very similar results.

Hand Cannon: it's not really that accurate, but it hits very hard. 42+(0.15bravery) gives you about 50 damage a shot, so even with bad armour piercing, the damage often overcomes it anyway. Also gets 52 damage HE rounds, which are quite fun. It's a pistol, and even with only four shots and low'ish accuracy, is the best non-training pistol you'll get for a long time.

Handle: still one of the best stun weapons in the game. Everyone should have one of these, or a cattle prod, for a very long time.

Everything melee'y: melee weapons are piratey. There's good early ones, there's bad early ones, but no matter what stats a gal has, there's a weapon she'll either be accurate with, hit hard with, or both. While -armour on weapons is nice, so are fast weapons, or hard hitting weapons. There's always something to use, so no cause to complain there.

If you're moderately well kitted, it's often worthwhile taking on a necropirates mission, just to get more of these things. They might be low on ammo and accuracy, but they'll punch through most things early on, and you get them pretty early (and even start with a few). There's even research chains to get better versions of them, or better ammo for them, but they might be outclassed by the time you do. Still, you can't ever say that you don't have anti-armour options in x-piratez, from day two'ish (there's like 1-3 research topics and you get tonnes for them).
« Last Edit: April 18, 2020, 07:17:18 pm by sambojin »
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Iduno

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Re: So OpenX-Com...
« Reply #1454 on: April 18, 2020, 08:07:35 pm »

Shotguns are nice, as mentioned, early on. For most anti-armour weapons, just look at the "pirate'y" line of weapons for all your early game needs. They're a little bit inaccurate, you'll definitely get better guns, but they're all amazing close ranged weapons. You might have a bit of difficulty finding ammo at the beginning, but as soon as you can make it, it's very fast and cheap to do so. They'll definitely get you through to mid-game, where your options open up dramatically (including other types of ammo for these guns, if you do decide to keep them around).

Pirate'y line is:
Assault Cannons: great early game long-distance grenade launcher. Normal cannon balls are OK for anti-armour with 80 damage and arcing shots, 60 damage HE balls are good for anything else, and are often good against medium armour as well. Pyro balls aren't bad either.  Gets lots of types of ammo later on. The defining factor of whether you can take on harder missions early on is whether you've got strong gals, an assault cannon or two, and the HE ammo for them. Note: you can conga-line a single cannon with multiple gals if you have to. That initial cannon is a godsend. Once you realize that you're getting 1-4 kills/stuns every map with that gal, and your brain overcomes the "but I could only shoot once a turn" bit of them, you'll realize how good they are. HE rounds are waayyyy more accurate than their stats suggest. 

Blunderbuss: it's a very big, very close-ranged shotgun. 6 pelletx25 damage normal shells alleviates lots of problems with light-med armour. Also gets 40 damage HE shells later on. A four barreled auto-shot can and will mulch things that shotguns probably shouldn't be able to, or strip tank shields like nothing else. If you could get into melee and take 2-4 swings, then you can probably single/auto fire a blunderbuss from 4-6 squares away as well, with very similar results.

Hand Cannon: it's not really that accurate, but it hits very hard. 42+(0.15bravery) gives you about 50 damage a shot, so even with bad armour piercing, the damage often overcomes it anyway. Also gets 52 damage HE rounds, which are quite fun. It's a pistol, and even with only four shots and low'ish accuracy, is the best non-training pistol you'll get for a long time.

Handle: still one of the best stun weapons in the game. Everyone should have one of these, or a cattle prod, for a very long time.

Pirate weapons? What are you...handle? Yeah, it's good early game, until you get better weapons. Always good for first-mission trainees. Capture everyone until you don't need to anymore (and always anyone who can be enslaved, and most of the ones that can be pimped, unless you're specifically doing a challenge run avoiding those, or have run out of space for prostitutes.).
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