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[Uristsonsonson]

I was catching up on the newest devlogs (it's been a while) and still don't really understand exactly how the civs or conflicts between and within them work. As far as I was aware, in the current release every civ had a monarch and capital, and only civs of different races could fight each other. Besides same civ inter-village conflicts, will this be a change in the new release, or did I just completely misunderstand it the whole time? Also, on the subject of racial civs, exactly how will each of them work? So far I've worked it out as:

Humans live in feudal, decentralized societies, apparently without any kind of overall leader unless a demon or vampire takes over. Their sites are forts, villages, towns, and cities. They can also build roads. They're a mixed bag personality-wise. They almost remind me of Roman-era Celtic tribes in that each human civ is more like a general culture shared by otherwise entirely independent and endemic warfare plagued petty fiefs.
Dwarves live in centralized, apparently Communist societies where everyone works for the good of the community and barely eats, drinks, or socializes. They tend to be somewhat mentally imbalanced and value typically dwarfy qualities like law, family, craftsmanship, and loyalty. Strangely, they don't seem to place a high premium on tradition or have any real concept of family beyond spouse, sibling, or child. Their sites are hillbilly hillocks, urban fortresses, and hillbilly deep sites. They mine tunnels as underground roads.
Elves live in centralized, druidic based societies within magical treehouses provided by the forest's local nature spirit (there seems to be one for each civ). I don't really know much about them besides that. Their sites include forest retreats and possibly orchards.
Goblins live in cliques in somewhat independent towers that tend to be officially ruled by escaped demons. I'm not entirely sure if a goblin civ can have multiple towers or just one each. I can see the case for either. Their towers seem to be their only type of site.

Is that an accurate picture of each, or am I missing something?

[metime00]

Goblins have sprawl too, like all of the other races, but only human sprawl gets icons. I'm not sure what the game calls the sprawl for other races, and it might just call them goblin towers still. Elves and Dwarves are the most centralized, I believe. Races other than humans have very little fleshing out in the world, but Dwarf society can be inferred by Fortress Mode. So those are more concretely defined, and to that you've probably summarized it all quite nicely. As far as the Elves and Goblins go someone could probably make a case for some pretty different directions that would still account for all the facts realized in the game itself.

Except you forgot to mention that the goblins have this symbiotic pseudo slavery relationship with trolls (they're both pets and sentient). I wonder how that works...

[ShadowHammer]

Except you forgot to mention that the goblins have this symbiotic pseudo slavery relationship with trolls (they're both pets and sentient). I wonder how that works...

Maybe goblins are just a sub race of trolls. How they're the ones in charge and the trolls are the slaves is beyond me; I mean, trolls are a few times bigger and a few times stronger than goblins. I guess it's the whole intelligence thing. Pointy metal objects and non edible metal skin do tend to take the edge off of evolutionary advantages.

Back on topic, I think that you have it pretty much correct, but I really haven't researched it all.

[misko27]

Humans are, to me, basically a confederacy of some kind: Clearly some central planning is going on somewhere (They still make war on others very easily); and there are lords, which imply a hierarchy; but by and large the towns and their attendant holdings are on their own.
After reading the Marxist analysis elsewhere on this board, I have to agree the dwarves are simply feudal: the individual dwarves are only working for the fort; not in the sense of "we are working together", but in the "I am obligated to the fort". The New hierarchy of King>a few Dukes>several Counts>Many Barons, with multiple of each subordinated to a fort higher in ranking. I don't think of the deep-dwellers as mountain hillbillies - they could be the denizens of cities inside mountains, with the forts acting as gates - but only time will tell.
Elves you have pretty down. They use magic on the trees and make them more livable and stuff.
Goblins have many, many dark fortresses. They are sorta like humans, but like humans in the way the old Sith Order was to the Jedi Order: Backstabbing, political intrigue, pointless violence (actually, that analogy is unusually apt). Basically like the political intrigues of the soviet union, but with more open murder and obvious bullying, less secrecy, and no central person (unless a clown shows up).

[Uristsonsonson]

But what about intraracial conflict? I know about the change allowing villages of the same civ to fight over grazing land or tribute or whatever. But will we see cities going to war a la Neverwinter/Luskan unpleasantness, and will any of that only be restricted to humans? How about different civs of the same race? It seems like it'd be kind of strange for the villages of the Confederacies of Uniting to fight each other without even raising a finger against those damn Kingdom of Prawns heathens.

[misko27]

But what about intraracial conflict? I know about the change allowing villages of the same civ to fight over grazing land or tribute or whatever. But will we see cities going to war a la Neverwinter/Luskan unpleasantness, and will any of that only be restricted to humans? How about different civs of the same race? It seems like it'd be kind of strange for the villages of the Confederacies of Uniting to fight each other without even raising a finger against those damn Kingdom of Prawns heathens.

There is nothing specifically against it, but so far in the game most wars are set off by ethical disputes, and since all races have the same ethics, they'd never fight. It stands to reason the villages would at least feud with villages from other countries, since they can have totally opposite beliefs.
War? They certainly can attack and kill. The thing is, whatever the start of the conflict now, the only way of resolving it is when one wins and gains tribute (which is the default for all), or possibly a stalemate. All conflicts, no matter the reason, have the aim of tribute, unless it's a foreign invader.
I would ask this in FotF.

[shali8]

As to the relationship between trolls and goblins...

Perhaps, goblins go through some sort of metamorphosis?

and Troll is their final stage of developement.
A side affect of this could be that goblins become senile during the transition from goblin to troll.
and the extremely old trolls could be the wild ones we see wandering subterranean caves.
Maybe the troll fur cloaks and socks that goblins are seen wearing is just a sign of respect (shaving a senile elder's back)
and not a sign of slavery?
A sort of grooming ritual.


or maybe trolls are just like that weird cousin instead of that aging m/patriarch

[misko27]

Ehh, neeh. For one, Trolls have blue blood, which puts them closer to lobsters then goblins. I'm pretty sure it's slavery, but the details will I'm sure be expounded on once we get a look at those troll-shearing pits.

I'm pretty sure it's much more pleasant the less I think about it, so that's what I'll do.

[BoredVirulence]

I imagine trolls undergo a similar indoctrination that kidnapped dwarves recieve. Its similar to the test that psychologist did involving bunnies and the metal rod with a kid. Long story short the kid maintained a fearful relationship with bunnies throughout his life.

Plus goblins do have weapons and numbers.

[Dream Weaver]

I had an adventurer from what seemed to be a joint human-Goblin civ. There was a goblin priest and his hunter wife living in the town fortress, a goblin merchant (vampire) ran a General Imports store, etc. How did that work?

They also had a demonic prisoner and elf and goblin slaves.

[k33n]

Well, you have humans and dwarfs down more or less.

You forget that Elves are raving monotheists content to go on a Jihad against those who harm the forest, have a matriarchal military leadership via druid appointed princesses, and will often ritualistically devour sentient beings that they beat in combat.

As for goblins, their civilizations have infinite social mobility - you keep what you kill. The slaves or offspring of slaves can cut the throat of the Master and then rule as kings as long as they can keep the throne with force and assassination. There are examples of a civilization of men, dwarf, elf living together under the tenants of golbinism long after goblins have died out from the civ.

[darkflagrance]

Well, you have humans and dwarfs down more or less.

You forget that Elves are raving monotheists content to go on a Jihad against those who harm the forest, have a matriarchal military leadership via druid appointed princesses, and will often ritualistically devour sentient beings that they beat in combat.

As for goblins, their civilizations have infinite social mobility - you keep what you kill. The slaves or offspring of slaves can cut the throat of the Master and then rule as kings as long as they can keep the throne with force and assassination. There are examples of a civilization of men, dwarf, elf living together under the tenants of golbinism long after goblins have died out from the civ.

I thought that the Elven Princess title was held by both men and women because the game ignored the gender restriction? Or did that bug get fixed?

[Matoro]

I thought that the Elven Princess title was held by both men and women because the game ignored the gender restriction? Or did that bug get fixed?

As far as I have researched Legends, I've only encountered female princesses and queens. So I guess it has been fixed.

It is a curious how everyone else in the world worships gods, but elves worship a "power". I've always thought that the elves are a little buddhist, maybe even agnostics or atheists. They don't believe in a gods as a beigns, but they believe in a universal power that surrounds everything in nature. That actually sounds a little like what Jedis believe about the Force.

The elves have an unique view to the life. Killing seems to be pretty accepted in their society. The most controversial aspect in their culture is that cannibalism is considered acceptable. However animals are held in high value and plants are literally sacred? I have a following theory about the elven religion:

- Mysterious force field, "The Power" surrounds everything that exists - by joining to that power one can finally get the rest from the life (elves are immortal, remember). It is an ultimate peace to join one's soul with that power (actually souls are just particles of the power).
- The earth, sky, water and other non-living parts of the world are an essential part that sustains The Power. They don't have needs or demands, they are considered to have found the peace.
- Trees and plants are on their final stage in the journey towards The Power. They have souls, just as rocks or animals or goblins have.
- Animals are considered a souls that are in their journey to become a plant or tree. They are really a part of the nature, they don't have a complex thoughts or distracting things in their world.
- Sapient species - elves, dwarves, humans, goblins, kobolds - are the lowest step on the stair of peace. Intelligent humanoids are greedy and they want always more. They are easily distracted from the true meaning of the life. Even some elves grow fond of politics, or gold, or fighting, or love. That all is just a distraction, it doesen't matter. One must learn to give up everything to come closer to The Power.

So the elves believe in reincarnation and in karma. They themselves are the lowest of the lowest, and they try to achieve good karma by protecting the ones who are more close to the Power - animals, plants and the nature itself. If they do this well, they may reborn into an , and then into a tree, and then, finally, to a stone or a river or a sky, and gain eternal peace.

This also clears why do they consider eating other sapient beigns normal - simply, why not?

[Manveru Taurënér]

I thought that the Elven Princess title was held by both men and women because the game ignored the gender restriction? Or did that bug get fixed?

As far as I have researched Legends, I've only encountered female princesses and queens. So I guess it has been fixed.

It is a curious how everyone else in the world worships gods, but elves worship a "power". I've always thought that the elves are a little buddhist, maybe even agnostics or atheists. They don't believe in a gods as a beigns, but they believe in a universal power that surrounds everything in nature. That actually sounds a little like what Jedis believe about the Force.

The elves have an unique view to the life. Killing seems to be pretty accepted in their society. The most controversial aspect in their culture is that cannibalism is considered acceptable. However animals are held in high value and plants are literally sacred? I have a following theory about the elven religion:

- Mysterious force field, "The Power" surrounds everything that exists - by joining to that power one can finally get the rest from the life (elves are immortal, remember). It is an ultimate peace to join one's soul with that power (actually souls are just particles of the power).
- The earth, sky, water and other non-living parts of the world are an essential part that sustains The Power. They don't have needs or demands, they are considered to have found the peace.
- Trees and plants are on their final stage in the journey towards The Power. They have souls, just as rocks or animals or goblins have.
- Animals are considered a souls that are in their journey to become a plant or tree. They are really a part of the nature, they don't have a complex thoughts or distracting things in their world.
- Sapient species - elves, dwarves, humans, goblins, kobolds - are the lowest step on the stair of peace. Intelligent humanoids are greedy and they want always more. They are easily distracted from the true meaning of the life. Even some elves grow fond of politics, or gold, or fighting, or love. That all is just a distraction, it doesen't matter. One must learn to give up everything to come closer to The Power.

So the elves believe in reincarnation and in karma. They themselves are the lowest of the lowest, and they try to achieve good karma by protecting the ones who are more close to the Power - animals, plants and the nature itself. If they do this well, they may reborn into an , and then into a tree, and then, finally, to a stone or a river or a sky, and gain eternal peace.

This also clears why do they consider eating other sapient beigns normal - simply, why not?

Actually, all this is explained fairly well in the various Threetoe stories concerning the elves. For one thing the forest spirit isn't all that different from a god, if anything it's much more a tangible being than the other gods. It is described as living in the midst of the elven forest, taking the shape of animals such as a squirrel or a swan and in one case a talking tree. The elves can seek an audience with it directly to consult on matters or be given directives.

Most of the elven cultural restrictions as far as plants and animals go seems rather to come from the forest spirit. Some of the stories handle elves being banished or losing the favor of the forest spirit after committing unjustified killing. In one of the stories a banished elf even comes back and seemingly kills or drives off the spirit by sacrificing a number of children and spilling their blood into the spirit's sacred lake thus corrupting it, so they most certainly have limits to their power.

Their cannibalistic nature is described as being an urge they get after killing, rather than anything cultural.

"The hunger you felt was the Ferrudei," said the goblin. "All elves feel it when they kill."

How much of the material in the stories that will make it into the actual game is of course not yet certain, but as of now it's the best source of cultural values we have :>

[Uristsonsonson]

Is there just one nature spirit for the whole planet though? I thought each elf civ had its own. Or each forest. It's been a while since I messed with Legends Viewer. If it's the latter, what would an elf civ's relationship with another spirit be?