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Author Topic: Outpost 5 - Suggestion Game - Update 26 - June 2091  (Read 36054 times)

Draxis

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Re: Outpost 5 - Quest/Suggestion Game - Update 1
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2014, 10:25:46 am »

Remember, you don't need to burn your engines the whole way; in fact, while the engines are built as durable as possible, without at least one shutdown for maintenance they will be more likely to fail on the trip.  Each year of engine shutdown while at top speed will add half a year to the flight time, but be a lot easier on the ship and fuel.  That number isn't quite right, but it's close enough.

The fuel numbers are what I intended, but hadn't properly considered their results; I was trying to rationalize the fuel system from Outpost 3 while keeping the overall balance the same, and failed. Not sure how that happened, since the numbers should have remained relatively the same for both the tanks and the fuel consumers.
Your fuel spreadsheet is wrong, as far as I can tell, because you have marked the fuel as weighing, costing, and massing twice as much as it should, but even with the correct numbers the fuel still weighs too much and the high-fuel-use components still take too much. 

I have modified the numbers so that a fuel tank holds twice as much as it did; fusion plants produce somewhat less power than they used to but use far less fuel; torches are 5 units smaller and now produce 18 thrust.  The system is now workable, but the MPD thrusters are too strong relative to the others; this is intended, because one of the previous Outpost ships spent a lot of research time improving it.

New engine-spreadsheet here.

Question, how much time do we have, exactly?

You have 15 months for a safe launch, or 18 for taking the risk of getting caught in the edge of the radiation storm; that is, 5 or 6 turns including this one.

As long as we are properly shielded from outside space, which, unfortunately, is not my forte. Space, that is. Get me a good a little more information on the planets in the closest and second closest system. Even if a binary system tends to be more risky, the number of planets means a number or resources we can pull from, if not one or more habitable planet. Would it be to much to ask for 20 ru to go to that end? Ten per system?
You can spend the research action trying to scope out those systems for very cheap, say 5 RU each, but I will roll on the results and unless you spend considerably more, it will only be using the existing telescopes, which means the results probably won't be a whole lot better.  I will confirm that each system has at least one rocky world with some ice on it, so whereever you go there will be some chance of success.

How many pods are included in the pre-installed ark-modules?
4 big bays, if that's what you meant; if you meant actual spaces for people, 10000 each, but you can assume there are enough free that you won't need any individual cryopod modules in the ship.

Each previous outpost has built the base underground, removing the need for domes; this has worked far better on some worlds than others, but it is something to consider.

The cryobays have integrated lifesupport for anybody in them, but for any waking crew lifesupport will still be needed, unless they want to breathe from a mask and get their food from injections straight to the bloodstream.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 10:30:25 am by Draxis »
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10ebbor10

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Re: Outpost 5 - Quest/Suggestion Game - Update 1
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2014, 10:48:36 am »

My fuel tank system is correct, I must insist. Point is that 1 fuel tank holds 2 fuel, so if you put 1 in amount, you get 2 fuel units on the right. That might cause some confusion, but the correct amount of fuel is noted on the right. The major problem with the fuel tanks is that fuel weights so much, that it greatly slows down the ship, requiring even more fuel.

On a side note, we don't have access to your revised engine spreadsheet.

Oh and another question. I hope we can install more than one part in each ship modification. Otherwise install those radioisotopic reactors might be complicated.


Quote
    Ship modifications: (choose up to 4)
        - Expanded superstructure (This is a necessity. )
        - Expanded superstructure (Less of a necessity, but I think we're going to need it.)
        -
        -

    Science/Engineering Project: (choose 1, say how much RU to spend)
        - Portable space elevator (10 RU, if needed. I don't like the idea of spending RU for research. It's limited as it is now.) : Making  a space elevator if you come from space is easy. We already got the counterweight (the ship). We just need a place to set up and we're done with it.

    Cargo purchase: (choose any number)
        - ((Nothing yet, even the largest installation can still be taken))
   
Event: Mission Destination
    Choose one:
        - Star B



On a side note, we need to decide upon a strategy. My strategy is the following. We will not land the ship at our destination. This should cut costs significantly. Instead, we move to a small moon, set up a mining operation, and meanwhile start terraforming. We need to keep the ship operational to let people stay in cryo, so crashlanding it isn't an option.



Edit: These new numbers are not an improvement. Fuel economy for most reactors has worsened significantly ((Large simple fusion used to provided 500 with 4 fuel, now it does 200 with 2)), gains have dropped, and the cost has remained the same.

And for the advanced reactors it's even weirder. Building 2 reactors provides the same output, but costs less, takes less space, and has greater flexibility. There's literally no reason why one would take the large complex reactor.

Edit 2: For normal fusion reactors it's the same as well, no point in using anything but the small ones. It's more efficient. My bad, small fusion reactors have worse fuel efficiency. Still counts for the advanced reactors.





Edit many: There's no reason to use the VSI Magnetoplasma Rocket. The plasma torch has same fuel efficiency, lower cost, lower mass and a better size to thrust ratio.

Edit many +1: This post looks way to ugly



« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 12:03:24 pm by 10ebbor10 »
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zomara0292

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Re: Outpost 5 - Quest/Suggestion Game - Update 1
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2014, 12:01:22 pm »

    Ship modifications: (choose up to 4)
        - Expanded superstructure (This is a necessity. )
        - Expanded superstructure (Less of a necessity, but I think we're going to need it.)
        -
        -

    Science/Engineering Project: (choose 1, say how much RU to spend)
        - Portable space elevator (10 RU, if needed. I don't like the idea of spending RU for research. It's limited as it is now.) : Making  a space elevator if you come from space is easy. We already got the counterweight (the ship). We just need a place to set up and we're done with it.

    Cargo purchase: (choose any number)
        - ((Nothing yet, even the largest installation can still be taken))
   
Event: Mission Destination
    Choose one:
        - Star B
I can get behind this, and not just because the star system changed to what I thought was appropriate, or the fact that, suddenly, my idea of researching the systems was proven to be whole useless, but, because i like the idea of using a space elevator from space, to get to a planet. it would be good for pulling needed resources from one place to another. I just rather it not be a one shot deal.


So. . . . Here is my request, can we send a very small number of scout probes ahead of us? Or, rather, have them in our vessel, and, when we get close to the system, fire them out to orbit several of the planets, and send back data on what to expect, or, rather, if one of the planets has what we need when it comes to setting up colonies and to shorten the amount of resources needed to do so.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 12:14:40 pm by zomara0292 »
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10ebbor10

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Re: Outpost 5 - Quest/Suggestion Game - Update 1
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2014, 12:11:42 pm »

I certainly don't want it to be a one shot deal. Ideally, we arrive in the system, find a moon without athmosphere.* Deploy our spacelevator and start gathering materials to patch up the ship. Meanwhile our terraforming probe, which we dropped of in the passing, should have dropped biological organisms that will start terraforming a planet of choice. It might take thousands of years to get that done, so meanwhile we build our base on the moon.

Main reason why I changed it to the slightly further away star system is because there're more planets there, so ...

*Smaller, less stress for the elevator


So. . . . Here is my request, can we send a very small number of scout probes ahead of us? Or, rather, have them in our vessel, and, when we get close to the system, fire them out to orbit several of the planets, and send back data on what to expect, or, rather, if one of the planets has what we need when it comes to setting up colonies and to shorten the amount of resources needed to do so.
It'll require an awful lot of precision but technically we could launch the probes during deceleration phase. They'd speed through the system, gathering info, and can beam that back to us. Not sure about the resolution though. I actually planned to do a journey of the planets during arrival, swinging past several systems for close up details before stopping the ship in an orbit of one planet.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 12:34:07 pm by 10ebbor10 »
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escaped lurker

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Re: Outpost 5 - Quest/Suggestion Game - Update 1
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2014, 12:53:15 pm »

While I like the whole moon-idea, the first system still remains my favourite. Reason being, liquid water. That translates to "guaranteed survival" in my book. Unless it turns out that the atmosphere is toxic in some way, converting the planet into a terrestrial world is easy going. We would just need to engineer the right plants - already within our capability - grow and spread them, and reap the rewards. It won't get any easier than that - ever.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Outpost 5 - Quest/Suggestion Game - Update 1
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2014, 01:23:12 pm »

While I like the whole moon-idea, the first system still remains my favourite. Reason being, liquid water. That translates to "guaranteed survival" in my book. Unless it turns out that the atmosphere is toxic in some way, converting the planet into a terrestrial world is easy going. We would just need to engineer the right plants - already within our capability - grow and spread them, and reap the rewards. It won't get any easier than that - ever.
Uhm, yes, indeed. Anyway, we don't need to make the decision now. If we design the ship for 1.2 generic travel units , it sure as hell can do 1 unit too. Though it might be a significant waste.  Anyway, rocky planet + liquid water is enough to convince me. Especially because liquid water also means there's an atmosphere and all that. On a side note, rerunning the numbers it seems unlikely that we'll get farther than the first system. My drafts now already include at least 40 fuel units on board, and that relies on significant advancements being made on the Ion engines..

Spoiler: Proposed ship systems (click to show/hide)

Quote
    Ship modifications: (choose up to 4)
        - Expanded superstructure (This is a necessity. )
        - Expanded superstructure (This is a necessity.)
        -
        -

    Science/Engineering Project: (choose 1, say how much RU to spend)
        - Portable space elevator

    Cargo purchase: (choose any number)
        -  Nothing
Event: Mission Destination
    Choose one:
        ( ) Star A or () Star B

Anyway, can be abuse relativistic dynamics (time dilation) to make the numbers work? After all, if we go faster, time goes slower.
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Draxis

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Re: Outpost 5 - Quest/Suggestion Game - Update 1
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2014, 01:33:34 pm »

You can certainly make terraforming plants if you want.  A space-elevator, though, will be a huge project which won't be viable without a major industrial base.  You can send out probes, but the standard sensor packages will be able to tell things like rough atmospheric compositions and surface coverage when you arrive in the system. 

I honestly did not expect people to take the combined ship, and didn't plan for it, so I will need to work out a way for it to not break the game; it could take a day or so.

Engine spreadsheet is updated and now usable by others..  I see you were right on the fuel numbers, so I actually quadrupled them instead of doubling them, but it seems to have come out adequately.  There will defenitely be a lot of fuel mass; you are traveling extremely large distances.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Outpost 5 - Quest/Suggestion Game - Update 1
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2014, 01:49:35 pm »

Meh, space-elevators aren't that hard to make. All we needed is 56 000 km of carbon wire. Which, admittedly seems like a lot, but it really isn't that much, considering it's extremely thin and lightweight and all that (In fact, it might only weight a few tonnes). Then again, I really want to keep the spacecraft in space, because landing is going to completely wreck it, and probably kill millions. Only option for a safe landing is on a planet with no athmosphere, which isn't optimal either.*

On another note, if this massive increase in fuel stays, it means that I'll have to rework my numbers, again. Ion might no longer be the best choice. Probably staying with it though.

*System A's frozen planet shouldn't have a dense enough athmosphere to prove severe hindrance, but I wouldn't count on it.
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Draxis

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Re: Outpost 5 - Quest/Suggestion Game - Update 1
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2014, 02:30:11 pm »

Right now, the fuel works out pretty much how it was intended; probably not changing that - it still takes about 1/4 of the space as propellant, by volume, for either the torch or the MPD - which is a lot, but workable.  Do remember that the cryobays will need to be kept powered after arrival, so there will probably be a good bit of fuel excess needed.
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TopHat

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Re: Outpost 5 - Quest/Suggestion Game - Update 1
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2014, 03:09:17 pm »

Do the ark cyrobays include life support for the people in cold storage, or do we have to add that seperately?
Also, I'm in favour of getting the factory kit. We can build auto. production lines with it fairly easily, and even a second factory in time, but if we don't take it we'll, in all likelyhood, never be able to make one.
(without tremendous difficulty, at any rate.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Outpost 5 - Quest/Suggestion Game - Update 1
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2014, 03:42:52 pm »

They do. Otherwise we'd have to provide lifesupport for millions, which doesn't really work.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 03:49:20 pm by 10ebbor10 »
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zomara0292

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Re: Outpost 5 - Quest/Suggestion Game - Update 1
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2014, 03:56:42 pm »

I can second the factory. As long as we have the resources, we can make whatever we need, and, maybe, if it allows, deconstruct unnecessary mass into well, useful RU
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The Pilot and their cargo handlers paused when they saw that the entire camp is covered in eldritch runes coated in blood. And rotting monkey corpses everywhere..

They decide that they didn't get paid enough for this..

10ebbor10

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Re: Outpost 5 - Quest/Suggestion Game - Update 1
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2014, 04:21:12 pm »

RU is only used for the ship construction part, if my readings from the previous games prove correct.

Quote
    Ship modifications: (choose up to 4)
        - Expanded superstructure (This is a necessity. )
        - Expanded superstructure (This is a necessity.)
        - Medium Cargo bay
        - Smart Command Center

    Science/Engineering Project: (choose 1, say how much RU to spend)
        - Portable space elevator/
        - If impossible, improved medium size He-3 MCF Fusion generator /w external radiators (Focus on fuel efficiency, if needed increase mass. Keep all other parts.)

    Cargo purchase: (choose any number)
        -  Nothing

Event: Mission Destination
    Choose one:
        ( ) Star A or () Star B

Right now, the fuel works out pretty much how it was intended; probably not changing that - it still takes about 1/4 of the space as propellant, by volume, for either the torch or the MPD - which is a lot, but workable.  Do remember that the cryobays will need to be kept powered after arrival, so there will probably be a good bit of fuel excess needed.
Just a confirmation, is the fuel calculation  as in your calculator (which we can watch , but not touch) correct, or the one in the OP. Makes a difference
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 04:47:38 pm by 10ebbor10 »
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Draxis

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Re: Outpost 5 - Quest/Suggestion Game - Update 1
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2014, 04:53:11 pm »

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10ebbor10

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Re: Outpost 5 - Quest/Suggestion Game - Update 1
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2014, 04:56:37 pm »

As in the calculator.
Now everybody should be able to use it.
Ok great. That opens up some margins. I'm wondering werether I should now recalculate for other engine types, but I'd like to stick with the ions.

Edit: On a side note, the site hosting the previous 2 games isn't really stable.
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