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Author Topic: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review  (Read 236178 times)

webadict

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #705 on: January 10, 2021, 05:57:45 pm »

You know, if we have open setups, we don't even need a moderator to run the game. All that needs to be done is to reveal your role when you die and continue the game.
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #706 on: January 10, 2021, 06:40:37 pm »

I've been thinking that if people enjoy this game mode enough, we should have an unofficial version during the "off-season", which would run endlessly.

That is, once the thread starts it would run over and over as players try to get as many King Mafia wins as possible. It would be fun to have a high score list in the OP or something.

And! It would be good practice for when next year's KotM actually happens, whenever Toaster plans on hosting, that is.
Endless KOTM?

(I read Toony's reference and it was hilarious. Makes me want to do a hyper-daykill setup even more.)

FoU, I like that nested idea of an SK hidden within the mafia team but you'd need to create some incentive or mechanic so the SK can't just reveal the scum team (say, when things are going badly for them).
Revealing the scum team makes it obvious that he's the SK, doesn't it? If the scum assign their mafiakill by vote, they can just shoot him. Or town vig kill.
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FoU has some twisted role ideas. Screw second-guessing this mechanical garbage spaghetti, I'm basing everything on reads and visible daytime behaviour.

Would you like to play a game of Mafia? The subforum is always open to new players.

notquitethere

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #707 on: January 10, 2021, 11:11:22 pm »

I'm thinking of cases where the SK is about to be lynched, squeals to the town that xyz are scum (maybe out of spite). Well, maybe that's a feature not a bug, gives an incentive for the scum team to not get themselves lynched. You're right, having the the mafia infiltrator also be anti town makes it still work.

You know, if we have open setups, we don't even need a moderator to run the game. All that needs to be done is to reveal your role when you die and continue the game.
Can the bot automate role PM sending?
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ToonyMan

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #708 on: January 10, 2021, 11:23:55 pm »

How would actions work at night?

"Hey I'm a cop and I'm inspecting you, what's your alignment?" What if a roleblocker sends a PM to the cop that they're blocking them right after? This would also reveal the cop's identity to who they're checking.

It would be really funny for mafia to just PM someone and be like "hey we're killing you tonight so post your role PM tomorrow".
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webadict

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #709 on: January 10, 2021, 11:26:12 pm »

You know, if we have open setups, we don't even need a moderator to run the game. All that needs to be done is to reveal your role when you die and continue the game.
Can the bot automate role PM sending?
Uh, yes, I'm about 99% sure it could, and in a relatively short time. It just needs real testing before it does. The real issue is that I can't send by username at the moment. I need to get the user ID, since that's how the PM page reads it (Without having the decoding that's done through the site. I could potentially set something up that gets the ID in the future.)

Short answer is yes. Long answer is yes, but in like a couple days or so.

Should we attempt a non-moderated version of Mafia?

How would actions work at night?

"Hey I'm a cop and I'm inspecting you, what's your alignment?" What if a roleblocker sends a PM to the cop that they're blocking them right after? This would also reveal the cop's identity to who they're checking.

It would be really funny for mafia to just PM someone and be like "hey we're killing you tonight so post your role PM tomorrow".
This wouldn't currently work with the no-mod version. But, no-mod Mafia would be small setups that don't have a Cop or Roleblocker in them. However, essentially, yes, that's how the Mafiakill would work.
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4maskwolf

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #710 on: January 11, 2021, 09:52:24 am »

Daykill BYOR: everyone submits a role name and receives back a role. The twist? There's only one Day. Everyone has a one-shot daykill ability of some kind and one other ability. Anyone can shoot anyone, and the mafia have a spare one-shot factional daykill too. Will get violent very quickly, and probably require multiple mods so the actions can be resolved quickly, along with potentially something like a 'no day killing for two hours after a day kill occurs and game start' moratorium. If all daykills are expended and no team has won, everyone gets their daykill shots expended at once.
Some larger communities run games known as "Mashes" which use a similar mechanic (everyone has a certain number of in-thread attacks every day, which are basically public daykills with a low % chance of success) and they are generally pretty popular.  They wouldn't work here, though, because a) for the sake of mod sanity they basically require dedicated automation software which we don't have and b) they're designed around having an enormous number of players (the smallest I've seen is in the mid 30s).

notquitethere

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #711 on: January 11, 2021, 01:24:07 pm »

To twist my CYOM Redux setup a little more, I've decided to add flaws back in. In order to get access to more powerful (and deadly) abilities, or start with more abilities, players take flaws. Flaws can never be ameliorated or detected, are random, permanent and usually pretty bad. The aim here is to aid also in fakeclaims (e.g. someone who takes a public action might fakeclaim to have the Usual Suspect flaw).

Some players won't want to risk the RNG and so will expand outwards instead of downwards.

Spoiler: CYOM Redux v.3 (click to show/hide)
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ToonyMan

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #712 on: January 16, 2021, 12:21:38 am »

We've been recently doing quick games of Blood on Clocktower on discord! Great fun but it only really shines at 7+ players, which we have trouble hitting consistently. Usually we play saturdays around 2-3 pm EST if I recall my timezones correctly, but stoirtap, the storyteller, seems willing to run more if more players were available at other times.

https://discord.gg/B7ANhME
channel name:
#clockwork-blood-oranges
This setup looks really cool. Not only do you need to find the demon, but also figure out what kind of demon it is.

I wonder how I could make it work as a forum mafia...
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Skynet

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #713 on: January 16, 2021, 09:58:21 am »

Too Many Mafias: 9 players, 2 mafia teams of 3 players each (who need to eliminate the other mafia team to win), except there's a serial killer player who gets a false mafia role and is inserted into both scum teams. Mafia teams vote on who gets to fire the mafiakill that belongs to their team. 4 town players, who would have a rough time being caught in the middle, but the serial killer needs to work to eliminate the mafia, and the town's role powers are on average stronger than the scum and serial killer players. Alternatively, 3 mafia teams of 2 players each, and the SK is inserted into only 2 of those mafia teams, and there's some sort of restriction on the mafiakill.

I like this idea a lot (I've been interested in three-way Mafia wars). I wonder if we can use the fluff in Religion Mafia (both game #1 and game #2) as inspiration for this setup, since it was designed for conflict between two scum teams.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2021, 10:01:25 am by Skynet »
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Skynet

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #714 on: January 17, 2021, 09:59:52 am »

Here's my initial draft, probably not balanced, but it's better to have a rough draft out there for people to comment (and to get this idea out of my head).

Day start.

Vanilla Mafia
Vanilla Mafia
Vanilla Werewolf
Vanilla Werewolf
Town Police (determines if someone is a Mafia)
Town Police (determines if someone is a Mafia)
Town Seeer (determines if someone is a Werewolf)
Town Seeer (determines if someone is a Werewolf)
Godfather Serial Killer (is part of both the Mafia and Werewolf scumteams, but wins individually - shows as Non-Mafia on Police inspects and Non-Werewolf on Seerer inspects)

All scum-kills are identified (so you know who the Mafia killed and who the Werewolf killed).

Victory Conditions

- Mafia wins when the Mafia team controls the daygame vote (50% + 1) and the Serial Killer is dead.

- Werewolf wins when the Werewolf team controls the daygame vote (50% + 1) and the Serial Killer is dead.

- Town wins when all scum roles (Mafia, Werewolf, and Serial Killer) are dead.

- Serial Killer wins when they are one of the last two surviving players or if all other players are dead. (Serial Killer does not need to be alive to win.)

If the last two surviving players are Vanilla Mafia and Vanilla Werewolf, then they cross-kill each other, so the Serial Killer wins.

If the last two surviving players is non-SK scum (Vanilla Mafia or Vanilla Werewolf) and a Townie (Police or Seerer), then the non-SK scum team kills the Townie player and wins.

Other Notes

The Godfather Serial Killer shows up Non-Mafia and Non-Werewolf on inspects...meaning they are indistinguishable from a Townie. This is a double-edged sword...it means the SK gets the trust of the Town Power-Roles, but it may also mean that both scumteams can easily see through the SK's facade.

Scumkills are determined by majority vote (50% + 1) within each of the scum team. If there is a tie, no mafia-kill takes place. A scum-team needs to lose one person for the other two people to know who's the SK and who's normal scum...and it also means that the SK is able to block scumkills from taking place, meaning the normal scum need to cooperate with the SK team temporarily at night, while manipulating the daygame to get rid of the traitor (which might be challenging: everyone hates the SK...but exposing your scum-affiliation in the process would hurt your chances of winning).

Power-Roles are indeed pretty powerful, at least when compared to the Vanilla Mafia/Werewolf, but since they're all inspection roles, it's possible for the scum to do a believable fake-claim and avoid suspicion. Also, the scum, as a whole, controls the daygame, so the Town is highly dependent on cross-kills and cross-lynches to help them gain ownership of the daygame vote.

EDIT: If scum kills off each other, there's a possibility that the Serial Killer could gain control over both scumkills. To prevent the SK from  being overpowered though...the SK can only use one of those scumkills per night. They cannot use both.

EDIT 2: It seems that the "all other players are dead" wincon for the SK would mean they would win in a scenario where you have one Vanilla Mafia, one Vanilla Werewolf, and one SK. The SK won't vote for their own lynch, and even if Mafia and Werewolf votes to take out the third role, then they'll just crosskill each other later on...so the SK would still win.

If you had one Vanilla Mafia, one Vanilla Werewolf, and one Townie, then it's likely either the Townie or the SK would win (unless one scum-team agrees to get themselves lynched/killed so the other scum-team wins). If the scum agree to lynch the Townie, then they'll cross-kill in the night, letting the SK win... and if the scum does a No-Lynch, they will probably still cross-kill each other, but the Townie would win because he's the last surviving player (and the SK wins only if all players die).

I don't know how best to handle that - is it a feature the SK could be able to win this way? I also wonder if I should move the "all other players are dead" wincon over to the Town side, to help give them a boost of sorts (they're already reliant on cross-kills anyway to help them win).
« Last Edit: January 17, 2021, 10:46:09 am by Skynet »
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notquitethere

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #715 on: January 17, 2021, 11:09:31 am »

I think this setup is promising but you're right it does allow a few odd scenarios where players cannot pursue their wincon late in the game but I think that just means you call the game end early if there's a mafia and werewolf and an sk left alive. The mafia and werewolf teams have an incentive to get rid of the SK before they kill all the town players, especially as they need the town players to cooperate in cross killing the other team.
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ToonyMan

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #716 on: January 17, 2021, 11:29:37 am »

To twist my CYOM Redux setup a little more, I've decided to add flaws back in. In order to get access to more powerful (and deadly) abilities, or start with more abilities, players take flaws. Flaws can never be ameliorated or detected, are random, permanent and usually pretty bad. The aim here is to aid also in fakeclaims (e.g. someone who takes a public action might fakeclaim to have the Usual Suspect flaw).

Some players won't want to risk the RNG and so will expand outwards instead of downwards.

Spoiler: CYOM Redux v.3 (click to show/hide)
This looks good.

EDIT: If scum kills off each other, there's a possibility that the Serial Killer could gain control over both scumkills. To prevent the SK from  being overpowered though...the SK can only use one of those scumkills per night. They cannot use both.
What happens if the SK needs to perform both nightkills for the mafia and the werewolf team on the same night? I guess it doesn't really matter since the only town powers are investigators.

The SK seems OP in this but it does look crazy and chaotic.
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4maskwolf

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #717 on: January 17, 2021, 11:36:09 am »

My biggest concern looking at that setup is that the town has very little control over their own fate.  They're basically relying on the scumteams to cross-kill each other enough that town can establish a majority, and their inspection roles are largely useless because they lack a majority to actually push through a lynch.

Leafsnail

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #718 on: January 17, 2021, 11:38:08 am »

Yeah I think the numbers may need tweaking. That said it is funny how one of the investigators giving a clear result on the SK actually outs them to one of the scumteams.
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notquitethere

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #719 on: January 17, 2021, 11:44:47 am »

You could easily pad the game out with a whole load of vanilla townies. I think there should probably be at least two more town players so they have a strict majority over all scum at the game start.
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