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[FallacyofUrist]

The problem with an optional cult is that nobody in their right mind would accept that change - and that playing to your current win condition is a big part of mafia.

Suppose you're working with a 9 player game and 1 optional cult leader. But the townies know if they don't agree to change role, the cult leader will just be rooted out and killed eventually.

You can't just choose not to be killed, or not to be role blocked, or so on. Conversion should be the same way. Of course cults need balancing, but you can do that in a number of other different ways.

As for the hypothetical 'super-observer'? How does that player win? How do you make the game challenging for them when they know everything?

Mafia is a game about informed minorities and uninformed majorities. But that doesn't mean the informed minority should get to know everything. There's always the question of 'what do the town power roles do'?

So the question is, even in a bastard game, how much information should the informed role receive? How do you balance that? How do you challenge them? What secrets do the uninformed players get to keep?

Or. Just in general. This is a question that any role designer should always ask themselves - what is the consequence of using a given role idea?

[EuchreJack]

As for the hypothetical 'super-observer'? How does that player win? How do you make the game challenging for them when they know everything?

I was thinking the role would be like that of a lunatic that knows the world is wrong/isn't real, but can't convince anyone of it in flavor.  And they would otherwise be vanilla town.  And they wouldn't know everything, I was a bit unclear on that point.  They would instead know the correct and changing rules of the game, and nothing about the players themselves.  They know exactly how many mafia/town/etc are in the game, how many roles are in play, and what those roles do, but not who has them.  It's a clear check on the bastard mod, as it adds some accountability.  An attempt to rehabilitate otherwise bastard ideas.

Speaking of Cult balance in the other direction, maybe one player should have a role where they can find out how many cultists are in the game.

To elaborate further on my hypothetical cult with voluntary recruitment, they also can win with town if town votes to coexist. Yet there is a third faction the inquisition that has the win condition of killing all cult, with the additional requirement of killing all town if town votes to coexist with cult.  A medieval witch hunter game.  The witches don't have to be anti-town, although they have a night kill.  They recruit by tagging town as witch initiates.  Witch initiates can chose to either join the witches or remain town.  But every turn they remain witch initiates, they'll show as team witch when inquisition investigates them.

3 witches, 2 inquisition, unknown town.  Witches recruit or kill, but not both on any given turn.  Both inquisition cops, limited number of day kills.  Inquisition switches to night kills (one per night) if town votes to accept the witches.

Still work in progress, plenty of time since there seems to be room in the queue.

[Tomasque]

As for the hypothetical 'super-observer'? How does that player win? How do you make the game challenging for them when they know everything?

A little lightbulb went on in my head.

The super-observer is a third-party role with otherwise no other abilities. Their goal is either "stay alive and get everyone else to kill each other off" or "make sure <some specific combination of things> happens by the end of the game."

Flavorwise, they're some kind of evil mastermind. What do you think?

[EuchreJack]

As for the hypothetical 'super-observer'? How does that player win? How do you make the game challenging for them when they know everything?

A little lightbulb went on in my head.

The super-observer is a third-party role with otherwise no other abilities. Their goal is either "stay alive and get everyone else to kill each other off" or "make sure <some specific combination of things> happens by the end of the game."

Flavorwise, they're some kind of evil mastermind. What do you think?

I really like the idea of their win goal being some specific combination of things.

[Jim Groovester]

I've generated some setups and fetched feedback from webadict and Mephansteras about them.

Spoiler: Original flavor cult setup (click to show/hide)

2 Cult Leaders
8 VT
1 Jailer

Investigation Phase - vote on player to publicly inspect
Elimination Phase - vote on player to lynch
Night Phase - night actions

Spoiler: Original flavor cult setup + webadict & Mephansteras feedback (click to show/hide)

1 Cult Leaders
1 Cult Member
7 VT
1 Roleblocker
1 Psychiatrist

Investigation Phase - vote on player to publicly inspect
Elimination Phase - vote on player to lynch
Night Phase - night actions

If the leader is eliminated the Cult gets to choose another leader exactly once.

Spoiler: Micro game cult setup (click to show/hide)

1 Cult Leader
5 Vanilla Town

Lynch only eliminates Cult. Cult Leader conversion creates Cult Allies, not Cult Team members. Game ends when Cult Leader + Cult Allies >= Remaining Town, or Leader is eliminated

Spoiler: Delayed Night Resolution Cult Setup (click to show/hide)

2 Cult Leader
8 Vanilla Town

Game starts at night. Cult submits actions that are resolved at the end of the following day phase. Lynch reveals alignment always and only eliminates Cult. Town may also vote on players to protect from conversion and roleblock. Day actions are resolved at the end of the day phase at the same time as the Cult's night actions.

Alternate setup would be to add roles and tie the public day powers to roles i.e. adding in a roleblocker and psychiatrist to the town so that the Cult can chip away at town power via conversions. I'd give them a cult leader + role cop role to help with this.

Spoiler: Delayed Night Resolution Mafia Setup (click to show/hide)

1 Mafia
1 Redirector

1 Cop
1 Doctor
5 Vanilla Town

+1 Vanilla Town
+1 Tracker
+1 Roleblocker

Game starts at night. Mafia team submits actions during the night that are resolved at the end of the following day phase. During the day players vote on who to lynch, who to inspect if the cop is alive, and who to protect if the doctor is alive. Day actions are resolved at the end of the day, at the same time as the mafia actions.

Role targets are chosen publicly but the actions still originate from the player holding the role and target the intended target of the action.

I'm leaning towards the last setup since it's novel and feels like it would be more fun and balanceable than a cult setup.

I have various opinions about the other setups, but there's a reason why I have generated several.

[Toaster]

Hmmm...

1 would need some rules to handle cult targeting the enemy cult.

2... do you mean Deprogrammer instead of Psychiatrist?  Would a deprogrammed townie leave the game?  Is the public inspect alignment only or would it differentiate leader vs recruit?

3 is interesting.  Lynches eliminate Cult Allies, I assume?

For 4, does the lynch or convert happen first?

4 and 5, I like the vote-driven town ability usage, and pinning it to the presence of the living role.

5, how would the Redirector work?  If Redirector acts to direct A to B and A is vote-inspected, actually the results of B are announced?  Is it known that the redirect happened?  Are the inspect results announced in public or sent to the relevant townie?

[Jim Groovester]

1 would need some rules to handle cult targeting the enemy cult.

The two cult leaders would be on the same team. There would still only be one conversion each night.

The intent was to make the game less swingy by giving the cult an extra leader so that the cult would be more durable to a potential day 1 town stomp, and also make a scum team instead of solo scum since I think that's an important part of making mafia games playable.

2... do you mean Deprogrammer instead of Psychiatrist?  Would a deprogrammed townie leave the game?  Is the public inspect alignment only or would it differentiate leader vs recruit?

Psychiatrist = conversion protection

webadict's feedback from setup 1 suggested this so the inspect would be alignment + role.

3 is interesting.  Lynches eliminate Cult Allies, I assume?

Correct.

For 4, does the lynch or convert happen first?

Hurrrarrrrrummmmmmmmmmmmmm my thinking was resolving everything as simultaneously as possible unless there was some kind of obvious precedence that needed to happen, so the convert would happen first. I'll have to think about that one and whether it makes sense and isn't a stupid freebie to the Cult.

5, how would the Redirector work?  If Redirector acts to direct A to B and A is vote-inspected, actually the results of B are announced?  Is it known that the redirect happened?  Are the inspect results announced in public or sent to the relevant townie?

My thinking is:

A is cop
players vote inspect B
Mafia redirects A to C
End of day, B has their alignment publicly announced, but the alignment announced is C's

The kill would be known (of course) but the redirection would not be known.

[prefuzek]

U, Robot - a nightless setup for 5-7 players with an informed majority of scum.


Roles:

• 2 Humans - win when all robots are lynched
• 3-5 Robots - win when one human is dead, share a scumchat

Nightless, one vote to lynch, but robots may not vote for humans. If 72 hours pass without a lynch, the robots win. Essentially, the robots need to convince one human to lynch the other, while humans need to kill all the robots.

This setup works well in person, but humans usually win since knowing that the robots can't lynch humans is very helpful for scumhunting. I think it might be more balanced on forums when the robots have a scumchat - coordinating buses is super important for good robot play.

[Tomasque]

U, Robot - a nightless setup for 5-7 players with an informed majority of scum.


Roles:

• 2 Humans - win when all robots are lynched
• 3-5 Robots - win when one human is dead, share a scumchat

Nightless, one vote to lynch, but robots may not vote for humans. If 72 hours pass without a lynch, the robots win. Essentially, the robots need to convince one human to lynch the other, while humans need to kill all the robots.

This setup works well in person, but humans usually win since knowing that the robots can't lynch humans is very helpful for scumhunting. I think it might be more balanced on forums when the robots have a scumchat - coordinating buses is super important for good robot play.

This is a cool setup. I'll have to check this one out in-person.

[EuchreJack]

U, Robot - a nightless setup for 5-7 players with an informed majority of scum.


Roles:

• 2 Humans - win when all robots are lynched
• 3-5 Robots - win when one human is dead, share a scumchat

Nightless, one vote to lynch, but robots may not vote for humans. If 72 hours pass without a lynch, the robots win. Essentially, the robots need to convince one human to lynch the other, while humans need to kill all the robots.

This setup works well in person, but humans usually win since knowing that the robots can't lynch humans is very helpful for scumhunting. I think it might be more balanced on forums when the robots have a scumchat - coordinating buses is super important for good robot play.

I think it might be impossible, or close to it, with those numbers.  The robots can't vote for humans, which means if a human is voted, they just vote the other human, and they're safe (ties usually mean no lynch).  Then the humans go through and eliminate everyone else.  You can just rotate the vote to each person, and whomever can't be voted on by the majority is human.

[Tomasque]

I think votes in this setup are essentially dayvig kills

[ToonyMan]

It's one vote to lynch, Jack.

And yes that does look fun.

[EuchreJack]

It's one vote to lynch, Jack.

And yes that does look fun.

I was actually going to speculate on how long it'd take you to "solve" that setup.

[prefuzek]

I think votes in this setup are essentially dayvig kills

That's correct. Another interesting thing is that once roles are sent, the setup can be basically self-moderating: when somebody votes, any other player can immediately confirm the roleflip.

What's the process like for queuing up small filler games like this?

(I know I'm new around here, but I played some games many years ago on a different account and I've been lurking on and off since)

[Mephansteras]

Generally people just see about interest in the Games Threshold List thread. For small set-ups, as long as enough people are interested it can usually just go ahead and run.