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[Remuthra]

Nope.

[My Name is Immaterial]

What?
Only 135?
Pffft.

I'll stick to my 200+ undead minions, thanks.

But do they respawn every 24 hours? Can they take any class? Are they resistant to turning?

I'm thinking 44 Shield Wall Crusaders in a square surrounding 36 reach weapon Psychic Warriors, surrounding 28 healers and supports, surrounding spellcasters and me.

[Rolepgeek]

If I have enough onyx/opal, yes. Awaken Undead spell, so yes. And yes, if only because I can bolster them.

But can yours be healed/regenerate easily in the midst of combat? Do they have d12 hit die automatically? Are they immune to half of basically everything? Are they capable of exploding into the essence of death itself?

[Remuthra]

Spoiler: GM Note to Self (click to show/hide)

Rain of Fire spells. Get them.

[Rolepgeek]

Meanwhile, my Fire Giant Skeletons laugh at you. Silently. They have no vocal cords.

Meh. There are, of course, many ways to be a necromancer(particularly a dread necromancer), from negative energy AoE spells that heal mine and hurt yours, to great throngs of stupidly powerful 1 HD undead that act like level 7 warblades in terms of effectiveness, to being a Dread Witch.

Ah, Dread Witches. Because bypassing fear immunities and having a 40+ bonus to Intimidate is fun.

[Remuthra]

Rain of Fire/Ice/Necron Monoliths/Cats/Clones of Nerull

[My Name is Immaterial]

If I have enough onyx/opal, yes. Awaken Undead spell, so yes. And yes, if only because I can bolster them.

But can yours be healed/regenerate easily in the midst of combat? Do they have d12 hit die automatically? Are they immune to half of basically everything? Are they capable of exploding into the essence of death itself?

But that gets costly really fast. And that also can be expensive. Fair enough. Yes. It's called first level clerics or healers casting Cure Light Wounds. Only the frontline fighters. No. I have to admit, that is an advantage.

Rain of Fire/Ice/Necron Monoliths/Cats/Clones of Nerull

That doesn't sound level appropriate.

[Remuthra]

If I have enough onyx/opal, yes. Awaken Undead spell, so yes. And yes, if only because I can bolster them.

But can yours be healed/regenerate easily in the midst of combat? Do they have d12 hit die automatically? Are they immune to half of basically everything? Are they capable of exploding into the essence of death itself?

But that gets costly really fast. And that also can be expensive. Fair enough. Yes. It's called first level clerics or healers casting Cure Light Wounds. Only the frontline fighters. No. I have to admit, that is an advantage.

Rain of Fire/Ice/Necron Monoliths/Cats/Clones of Nerull

That doesn't sound level appropriate.

Close to four hundred minions makes for a really high party level. High enough for me to throw the pantheon at you, probably.

[Rolepgeek]

...Remuthra, the minions are included in the CR of the class itself. Otherwise, level 7 clerics with undead minions would be like CR 14 encounters. Undead Mastery is simply part of Dread Necromancer, just like Fast Movement is simply part of Monk, or Sneak Attack is simply part of Rogue...or Wild Shape is simply part of Druid.

Plus, I'm not actually likely to go for the Skeleton Phalanx of Doom(Legion of Undeath, awww yeahh). Maybe some archer squads, yeah, but it's more likely to be just a few hulking brutes, and then like half of my 'army' would be off mining for more Onyx/Opal(still not really sure which it is). And generally making money.

But as for Remuthra's ideas, Skeletons are immune to Cold regardless, so Rain of Fire/Ice still wouldn't work on them. On the topic of cats, funny thing about that...I have skeleton rats. All of my undead explode into negative energy when they die. See where this is going? As for Nerull, I don't fuckin' know. I would think we'd be buddies.

On other notes, because it really isn't as uber-charged as you're making it out to be(mostly because I get neither Command Undead nor Awaken Undead for another few levels), there are variant zombie/skeletons in the Libris Mortis. Would it be possible to make them with a Craft(undead) check.

[My Name is Immaterial]

half of my 'army' would be off mining for more Onyx/Opal(still not really sure which it is)

Onyx.

[Remuthra]

Yes.

[Rolepgeek]

But yeah. Gray Render Zombies and Storm Giant Skeletons are more likely than hordes of Strongheart Halfling Skeletons waiting to be awakened.

The latter will probably happen at some point, but even then, I can't bring them all to bear(and remember, even if the CR is added to party level, remember that 64 orcs is not a challenge for an 11th level party. 100-200 1 HD skeletons is not a CR 15 encounter, even backed up by a Dread Necro. It's one of those 'do this, then it's much easier' encounters; kill the dread Necro, suddenly you're not being blasted by Mass Inflict Light Wounds that heal his troops while it whittles away at you. I mean, when you Turn them and they all die, they'll still explode, but meh.

[Remuthra]

But yeah. Gray Render Zombies and Storm Giant Skeletons are more likely than hordes of Strongheart Halfling Skeletons waiting to be awakened.

The latter will probably happen at some point, but even then, I can't bring them all to bear(and remember, even if the CR is added to party level, remember that 64 orcs is not a challenge for an 11th level party. 100-200 1 HD skeletons is not a CR 15 encounter, even backed up by a Dread Necro. It's one of those 'do this, then it's much easier' encounters; kill the dread Necro, suddenly you're not being blasted by Mass Inflict Light Wounds that heal his troops while it whittles away at you. I mean, when you Turn them and they all die, they'll still explode, but meh.

Actually, once you get enough 1 HD skeletons, it's basically infinite CR. If 300 bowmen shoot you, you die. Unless you have DR. Then they shoot you with something to bypass it and you die.

[Rolepgeek]

...If they hit. That's the thing. Plus, they have to not be destroyed, there's a bunch of things like entropic warding, DR of course, and again, they have to hit. If you have a tower shield, those bows are basically useless. I mean, besides the part where I don't plan on having that many bowmen(if I did, I'm not using them for adventuring. At that point I'm just conquering cities), there are always counters(to everything, even Pun-Pun. Pun-Pun's counter is called 'DM fiat'). Those don't necessarily have to be 'clerics fall, everyone redies'.

EDIT: Pun-Pun's other counter is 'Book Throwing', the special ability Gamers get. It's kinda like how Giants get Stone Throwing.

[My Name is Immaterial]

I think the one thing that solidly puts Psions over Dread Necromancers is their Psi-crystal. A Psi-crystal is a psionic familiar, a fragment of the owner's personality. While they require a feat to use, it is possible, with some liberal reading of the rules, to have the Psi-crystal have a Psi-crystal. Who has a Psi-crystal. Who has a Psi-crystal. Who has a Psi-crystal. Who has a Psi-crystal. Who has a Psi-crystal, until it's Psi-crystals all the way down.

The specifics, from Birth of Oblivion, another game from Remuthra. I was disappointed when it sort of petered out.

The character sheet for my Psi-crystal.
You may say, 'Immaterial, why would you create a character sheet for what is basically your psionic familiar?'
And, hypothectical person, I would reply: 'Because Number Two gets HD, which means he gets feats and skill points. Since he gets feats, I have to figure out where to spend them. Since most of the normal feats are basically non-applicable to psi-crystals, I chose Practiced Manifester and Psi-crystal Affinity.'
You, hypothecial person, might ask 'Wait. Practiced Manifester says "Choose a manifesting class that you possess... Your manifester level for the chosen manifesting class increases by four." Number Two doesnt have any manifesting class.'
'That is true, but it says "a manifesting class you possess". Since Number Two is me, and I possess a manifesting class, taking that feat means NT has a manifesting level of 4, and no powerpoints. The requirement for Psicrystal Affinity is one manifesting level, so he can make his own psicrystal.'
You'll probably say something like 'Stop powergaming after midnight.'
And I should.

Just try and stop me now, Remuthra! Just try! I will drown your centaur in a sea of crystals!