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Have few types but with many possible functions for each.  The simpler option

38 (42.2%)

Have many different types that each takes a particular input, for long assembly lines

29 (32.2%)

Have many types, allow using the wrong ones, but using them correctly lets the items have quality levels

23 (25.6%)

Total Members Voted: 69

[migshark]

Ah, sorry. I hadn't noticed that.

[IndigoFenix]

I was planning on making the mechs pets at any rate.  They are unreliable, but I was mainly planning on making them a trap-reliant race, the robots should behave more like a different kind of trap than a proper military.

Leaving out combat armor seems reasonable...on the other hand, itemsyndrome based powered armor could be cool...

[IndigoFenix]

So I'm settled on gnomes after all.

What I'm thinking now is that their higher technology should be - in a word - weird.  Dwarves have their stark iron golems and wards of Armok, gnomes will have swarms of explosive clockwork chickens, rocket boots, and shrink rays.  They don't tend to think in terms of combat, they just get crazy ideas for inventions and then later figure out what to do with them.

How easy is it to spawn new creatures with DFhack?  I haven't actually done any work with it.  Do you have to do the transform -> melting bodypart -> resurrect and transform thing or transform an existing creature, or is there a way to simply make a new pet in a workshop from scratch?

Some ideas to give a general feel for what I'm going for (not sure about details yet):

hand drill
clockwork chicken
clockwork cat
clockwork carp
bomb chicken
steam engine
power cells
drill mech
spider mech
techno-trousers
handy helmet
force field generator
shrink ray
time-freezer
tesla coil
seismic oscillator

[Meph]

Code: [Select]

force field generator
shrink ray
time-freezer
tesla coil
seismic oscillator Thats very sci-fi and 1900-century. DF is based on 1400-century, while I pushed it at bit towards 1500/1600-century with the muskets and flintlocks, and many people ask about "disabling guns, because they dont feel DF like".

I guess for people that want to play a tech-race, it makes perfect sense to have these things, just make sure that these are custom items and dont appear in gnome caravans that go to dwarven forts. I think people that play gnomes will love to have this, but people that just want dwarves and ignore the other races shouldnt have to deal with teslacoils and shrinkrays, because it doesnt fit the theme.

Or make a forum poll, and ask what the community wants.

Like: Up to 5 votes, vote for what you want to see:
Machinery
Robots / Automatons
Steampower
Electricity
Sci-Fi Features

[CptCrunchy]

I'd be alright with the force field generator and other such sci-fi stuff, as long as they dont get traded to other civs.  I'd think of it as them not wanting to share their super advanced technology with the war-hungry other races, and only using it for defense

[IndigoFenix]

Most of the sci-fi elements would either be workshop reactions or constructed pets, so they wouldn't show up at a dwarf fortress anyway.  Though the small clockwork creatures and augmentation armor might not be too out-of-place.  Currently the Gnomes don't appear to trade anything interesting except for guns, they could use some new inventions to make them valuable trade partners.

Well, it's still in the brainstorming phase.  I was taking some ideas from WoW, which admittedly has somewhat of a different aesthetic than DF, but I figured it might work as a counterpart to the Dwarven golems.

[Meph]

One more thing: You might have noticed that the gnomes have no active seasons in their entity file. Thats because they should only be special tradepartners, that you have to call with the embassy first. They never siege anyone.

This would mean that you yourself, if you play gnomes, dont have caravans, except if you run the force caravan script.

You also dont have to take any raws from MDF if you dont like. You can write them from base up as you see fit, or take some raws, mix it up, as you like. You dont have to stick to whatever I wrote for Gnomes so far. If you dont like the creature of entity file, feel free to change it or make a new one.

[IndigoFenix]

Yes, I'm going to guess that the base entity file is copied from someone else... seeing as how they seem to have a sphere alignment of WAR and find slavery, torture, and murder acceptable.

Is it possible to make a race that shows up for trade with allies but never shows up to attack enemies?  I was trying to find one a while back but eventually I just gave up.

[Meph]

Yes, exactly the way I described. Make them a non-babysnatching civ, give them pack animals, and no active seasons. Then make a reactions that triggers force caravan. "Invite gnome traders". Or in your case: "Send a morse code to capitol: Traders. Stop. Needed. Stop."

You can do the reverse, and have a race that never trades and only sieges, if you make them babysnatching, and the reaction triggers force invasion. I wanted to use something like that for races that shouldnt appear just like that. For example a evil shade army that is attracted to your base by certain things you do, but otherwise never does anything. People can make very specific races this way.

The only problem is that the worldgen ignores the active seasons completely, and they will freely have wars in worldgen.

[IndigoFenix]

So first thing I'm starting with are the clockwork animals.  I've decided to make a whole bunch of them in a huge range of sizes.  I'm planning on there being a huge amount of customization, but there are limits to how far I can go with castes and such.  So right now they're divided into models and materials, with some extra abilities that can be added on as upgrades.

Species:

beetle (tiny)
rat (cheap and weak)
chicken (lays clockwork eggs which are useless but can be melted down)
cat (hunts vermin)
tortoise (can retract for protection, good for drawing enemy fire)
badger (prone to rage)
dog (trainable)
carp (can move slowly on land, becomes fully aquatic when submerged)
shark (ditto)
sheep
monkey
horse
giant spider
giant scorpion
tiger
bison
crocodile
bear
elephant
dragon
gnome (caste of civ, can do labors)

They can be constructed from all weapon metals, as well as aluminum and brass.  Aluminum and adamantine machines will have slightly higher speed than other materials.  Obviously the big species take huge amounts of materials to make.

Most clockwork creatures can be upgraded with one or more special add-ons: solid projectile guns, flamethrowers, web shooters, advanced clockwork brain (adds the ability to learn), possibly other stuff (adding on to these is actually the simpler part, since these upgrades don't actually require a new species/caste, they simply alter stats or abilities).  Lots of combinations are possible.  So you can construct, for instance, a steel clockwork sheep with mounted flamethrowers or an aluminum chicken with a machine gun.

The big question I have is how easy it would be to repair them and how they should be powered.  Bear in mind that the larger of these machines require a huge amount of metal to construct and are also quite effective in combat, being covered in whatever material was used to make them (though the clockwork insides can be less sturdy) and having all the typical monster immunities except for NOSTUN.  Some possibilities:

1. Simply run forever (using a miniature water reactor!).  When killed, leave a 'damaged clockwork x' item that can be restored to a new creature by repairing it at a workshop.  The metal frame remains, but you would need new mechanisms/clockwork brain to repair it, and it would lose any upgrades in the process.
2. Must be periodically 'refueled' or 'wound up' using a workshop reaction - if not refueled, falls 'unconscious' until it is refueled.  Otherwise same as option 1.
3. Eats a particular food for fuel out of stockpiles (not sure if this is possible without making the food also edible to regular creatures).  Dies normally if it starves, leaving a regular corpse.  Clockwork corpses can be resurrected at a workshop regardless of how they 'died', but if they suffered a violent death, they would drop dead again immediately after resurrection, so these ones would require a more expensive 'repair' reaction to get them running again.

Any other ideas?

[Meph]

1. Runs forever.
2. No, too much micromanagement.
3. No, cant be done with modding.

I would offer another solution: A low max-age. Build a clockwork chicken, but it might fall apart 3-5 years later. Make a steel elephant, he might last 10 years before the machinery goes awry. They can leave butcherable corpses that give back spare parts, or itemcorpses that can be melted down for metal.

So you can construct, for instance, a steel clockwork sheep with mounted flamethrowers or an aluminum chicken with a machine gun.

And I love this. Its not what I would have gone for, which makes it even better. This is exactly the hilarity that DF needs.

[IndigoFenix]

Got a question concerning graphic packs.  What are the limitations of creature graphics?  Can each caste of a species have its own graphics?  How hard is it to change the color of a creature?  'Cause I'm making a whole lot of different construct types here, and it would be a shame if they all had to have the same graphics because I sorted them wrong.

Also, I know that civ creature graphics can only be divided up based on their jobs, but does that also apply to colors?  Like, can I make clockwork or half-clockwork gnomes that look like normal gnomes but are different colors?  (I guess it wouldn't be too bad if they looked just like the others, I'm just wondering.)

Also, how problematic is adding new creatures, items, and reactions when it comes to game speed?  (There are currently close to 200 construct castes in total - 25 models and 8 materials, and each one will need to have at least 3 reactions associated with it, for construction, activation, and repairing...that's a lot of data to work with, and I don't want to cause the game to slow down to a crawl as a result.  If need be, I guess I can get rid of some of the more redundant model types, but I figured that having a lot of different creative options should be the gnome's specialty.)

[Meph]

Game speed doesnt care. The mod has 7000 reactions, 1300 creatures already. Its the items that fly around in fort mode that hurt. Items, creatures that pathfind, temperature... that kind of stuff. (WAIT. Did you say you have 200*25*8 creatures?)

Graphics: Very complex topic.

Creatures can have 5 sprites.. Alive. Kid. Undead. Wartrained. Huntingtrained. Thats it. Castes have the same sprite. Caste can have a different color.

Example:

Code: [Select]

![CREATURE_GRAPHICS:DOG]
[DEFAULT:PHOEBUS_ANIMALS:0:8:AS_IS:DEFAULT]
[CHILD:PHOEBUS_ANIMALS:1:8:AS_IS:DEFAULT]
[ANIMATED:PHOEBUS_ANIMALS:2:8:AS_IS:DEFAULT] zombie
[TRAINED_HUNTER:PHOEBUS_ANIMALS:3:8:AS_IS:DEFAULT]
[TRAINED_WAR:PHOEBUS_ANIMALS:4:8:AS_IS:DEFAULT]The AS_IS means the sprite looks like the sprite in the graphics folder. You can replace AS_IS with ADD_COLOR, and it will use the caste color for the sprite. It adds a hue.

Since blobs look alike, but are clearly made of different materials, they get ADD_COLOR. Red fire blobs, Green Acid blobs and so on.
Example:

Code: [Select]

[CREATURE_GRAPHICS:BLOB_SMALL]
[BLOB_SMALL:TCRAFT_BLOB:2:1:ADD_COLOR:DEFAULT]
[DEFAULT:TCRAFT_BLOB:2:1:ADD_COLOR:DEFAULT]
[BLOOD_MALE:TCRAFT_BLOB:2:1:ADD_COLOR:DEFAULT]
[BLOOD_FEMALE:TCRAFT_BLOB:2:1:ADD_COLOR:DEFAULT]
[ICE_MALE:TCRAFT_BLOB:7:1:ADD_COLOR:DEFAULT]
[ICE_FEMALE:TCRAFT_BLOB:7:1:ADD_COLOR:DEFAULT]
[FIRE_MALE:TCRAFT_BLOB:4:1:ADD_COLOR:DEFAULT]
[FIRE_FEMALE:TCRAFT_BLOB:4:1:ADD_COLOR:DEFAULT]
[ACID_MALE:TCRAFT_BLOB:6:1:ADD_COLOR:DEFAULT]
[ACID_FEMALE:TCRAFT_BLOB:6:1:ADD_COLOR:DEFAULT]
[TOXIC_MALE:TCRAFT_BLOB:11:1:ADD_COLOR:DEFAULT]
[TOXIC_FEMALE:TCRAFT_BLOB:11:1:ADD_COLOR:DEFAULT]Thats for wildlife and pets. Civ-Graphics will be a lot different.

Civs use profession sprites, noble sprites (these are unlimited btw), and military sprites. You can also use ADD_COLOR, for example all your construct-wielding gnomes are gold/brown/grey... But they will still look like gnomes. There are a few ways to cheat:

Make unique professions: If a creature cant learn a skill, it will never have this profession. Then make a caste with natural skill, and it will be the only caste with this profession. It will then take on the caste graphics.

Problems with that: Players can give 5 points at embark anyway, so it has to be a profession you cant teach at embark (not many), and all other castes need at least a natural skill 6 in some other skill. This way, even if players give them 5 points on the unwanted skill at embark, they are still better in another and wont assume the unwanted profession.

Problem Nr.2 with that: If a creature is made a noble, the noble sprite will overpower the normal profession sprite. This is both good and bad. If your EPIC_GOLEM who looks like a machine is elected Mayor, he will look like a little gnome in a fancy hat. So thats bad. On the other hand, ALLOWED_CREATURE and ALLOWED_CLASS can restrict nobles a bit, making it possible to have a noble that can only be appointed from your EPIC_GOLEMS, and no one else. But this has to be done manually. Make golem. Golem still looks like gnome. Appoint golem to golem noble. Golem now looks like golem.

Problem Nr3: Soldiers. Even if you have a unique profession for special graphicsm, as soon as they join the military they will look like a Recruit. When they learn a weapon skill, they will look like any other soldier. The solution to this is again making a military skill unique, and adding (and this hurts), 6 points of natural skill to a military skill for all other castes, and making the skill not learnable at embark. (For example its blowgunner you use, just dont add blowguns to the entity, then you cant learn blowgunning at embark).

I think the permitted jobs in the entity also toggle which skills can be learned at embark, even if people can still learn everything by themselves later.

There is also ALT_TILE and FLASH_TILE, but they dont work on civ-members, as I sadly had to find out. They flicker uncontrollably. They are ok for pets though.

And the question couldnt have come at a better time. I have been working all day yesterday on the Warlock graphics, so everything is fresh in my mind. Because I managed to do it, having a civ with 2 graphics, Warlocks and Skeletons. I am still cleaning out rough edges, but it works. Skeletons cant learn  13 skills except combat skills, with the exception of pike, have natural mining 6. Warlocks can learn 13 labors, but only pike in combat, and start with natural skill 6 in pike and extract_strand (praying), and pikes are foreign, which means pike skill can not be learned at embark.

PS: Oh, btw, if a noble profession has no graphics assigned, it will not use anything and the profession from the labor is still used. I would assume its the same for military.

EDIT: And because I started rambling instead of answering questions:

What are the limitations of creature graphics?
 - A lot. 

Can each caste of a species have its own graphics? 
 - No, only its own color.

How hard is it to change the color of a creature?
 - Easy. Either make more sprites with photoshop, which looks better, or use CASTE_COLOR, which overlays the sprite with a hue. Might be a very strong color.

Also, I know that civ creature graphics can only be divided up based on their jobs, but does that also apply to colors? 
 - No, CASTE_COLOR will still work on them, no problem. Your normal mason and your blue-caste mason will look different. Same sprite, different color.

Like, can I make clockwork or half-clockwork gnomes that look like normal gnomes but are different colors?
 - Yes, again, CASTE_COLOR for the clockwork gnomes.

[IndigoFenix]

Ah, okay, that's what I needed to know.

Guess I'm going to have to redo the creatures then if I want them to look right. I had them divided into species based on material, and caste based on model (so that I could just use a single template for the models and then just copy them while changing the main tissue's material).  I'll need to do it the other way around to make them each have their own sprite, which will require a much bigger file.  But at least there's no technical problem with the constructs, and the clockborg gnomes should just be gray- or copper- colored regular gnomes so that's fine.

And no, I have only 200 creatures (25 models * 8 materials - the list isn't perfectly determined yet but there probably won't be too much more than that, unless I add some more materials like wood and maybe one of the new Masterwork metals like mithril or something.  Mithril clockwork robots.  How's that for genre-busting?).

[Meph]

Wood robots are way awesome.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(sorry, I had to do it.)

But yes, each different looking creature needs its own creature, its own creature graphics and a caste-color. creature_animated_weapons.txt has good example.